"as mind numbingly incomprehensible as ours plus VAT"?

Post #382,673 by CRConrad 10/25/13 1:51:55 AM Reply	"as mind numbingly incomprehensible as ours plus VAT"? Sounds as if you're trying to say VAT in the British taxation system is over and above the complexities of the American system, making it even more "mi[n]d-numbingly incomprehensible" than yours. But don't you Yanks have something called a "sales tax"; and what's that, then, if not VAT by another name? Seems theirs just as mind-numbingly incomprehensible as yours, including VAT/sales tax. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #382,675 by Another Scott 10/25/13 8:15:41 AM Reply	Yup. Sales taxes vary by state and region. In DC it's 10%. But it's not a tax on everything. Services usually aren't taxed. And over the last few years it has been common for localities to tax food and some necessities at a lower rate than the headline rate. And sometimes localities have "holidays" and reduce the sales tax to 0% for a few days on some items (e.g. clothes that cost < $100 for a few days before school starts). And until recently if a buyer was out of state, the merchant was not forced to collect sales tax for that person. Most states have a few cents/gal tax on gasoline (to help pay for road construction, etc.). Virginia recently passed a law to eliminate that tax and instead tax oil and gas at the wholesale level. Somehow. IOW, as usual, something that was relatively simple - a percentage on everything sold to the end buyer - has become more and more complex over time as it is adjusted (for good and bad reasons). At the same time, income taxes are reduced for some. It's another example of strangling revenue sources for the public good. There have been occasional noises about having a national sales tax, or a national VAT, but opponents always demagogue it by pointing to the 25% rate in Finland and it scares people who think that their sales tax is going to go from 5% to 25% overnight. Of course, the fact that high sales tax rates are extremely regressive compared to income taxes is secretly regarded as a feature not a bug around here... :-/ FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #382,676 by drook 10/25/13 8:49:40 AM Reply	Secretly? Not quite the right word there. -- Drew
Post #382,684 by boxley 10/25/13 10:34:58 AM Reply	so you are supporting the fairtax or still demagogueing it? There have been occasional noises about having a national sales tax, or a national VAT, but opponents always demagogue it by pointing to the 25% rate in Finland and it scares people who think that their sales tax is going to go from 5% to 25% overnight. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,690 by Another Scott 10/25/13 11:31:05 AM Reply	Heh. I support a simple, sensible, and progressive tax system. The Fair Tax is isn't. http://taxprof.typep...lett_fair_tax.pdf (14 page .pdf) has Bruce Bartlett's takedown of it from 2007. [...] Basically, the VAT solves all of the administrative and compliance problems that FairTax supporters are either ignorant of or just assume away. Virtually all reputable economists who have looked at this issue have concluded that if the United States wishes to adopt a national consumption tax, either as a supplementary tax or a replacement for all or part of the existing tax system, the VAT makes far more sense than something like the FairTax. This has also been the conclusion of every foreign country that examined the issue. 72 Perhaps if we could shrink the size of the federal government down to less than 10 percent of GDP, a national retail sales tax might be a workable option, because the rate would be low enough that many of the problems discussed above would not be insurmountable. After all, we funded the federal government largely with tariffs on imports Â a kind of consumption tax Â until 1913. But economists know that bad taxes that can be borne relatively easily at low rates present serious problems at higher rates. ThatÂs why it was impossible to continue funding the federal government with tariffs and why the income tax was developed. In short, at a 10 percent rate, the FairTax might be viable; at a 23 percent rate Â and certainly higher Â it just wonÂt work. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #382,691 by boxley 10/25/13 11:54:06 AM Reply	support a VAT of 23% but not a sales tax of 23% got it :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,693 by Another Scott 10/25/13 12:48:45 PM Reply	The difference between VAT and sales tax. VAT is the tax on the added value before it moves to the next step in the chain. Sales tax is a tax on the final sales price. They're different beasts and the nominal percentages to raise the same amount of money would be different. http://www.economist...012/05/tax-policy In a recent post at the New York Times' Economix blog, Mr Bartlett discusses at greater length the appeal of circumventing a pointless political foofaraw over each and every nickel-and-dime tax expenditure by instead exempting those who earn less than $100,000 from all income tax, in exchange for a VAT: Prof. Michael Graetz of Columbia Law School has proposed what I believe is a MacArthur-like solution to tax reform. He would abolish the income tax for the vast bulk of Americans and replace the revenue with a 12.5 percent value-added tax. People would pay their taxes when they buy things and wouldn't need to worry about keeping records or filing tax returns at all.The brilliance of the Graetz plan is that no tax expenditures need to be repealed. He would simply give every family a tax exemption of $100,000, which would eliminate the income tax for 90 percent of those now filing returns. For lower-income people who currently have no net income tax burden or who earn an income tax credit, Professor Graetz proposes a rebate (too complex in its details to spell out here). The devil, as always, is in the details. I would not support totally abolishing the personal income, corporate income, and inheritance taxes. Accumulation of vast wealth for generations, and companies sitting on tens or hundreds of billions of dollars, are both bad for the country and her people. I would have to be convinced that a 10-15% VAT was a good idea (e.g. lots of poor people need cars to get to work, and a sudden 10-15% price increase would hurt them). YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #382,694 by mmoffitt 10/25/13 1:09:13 PM Reply	We need to tax unearned income at the same rate as earned. For a fair tax code to exist, this bullshit about taxing money made from money at a lower rate than money made from sweat has got to end.
Post #382,695 by Another Scott 10/25/13 1:12:39 PM Reply	Agreed.
Post #382,699 by folkert 10/25/13 4:48:00 PM Reply	Damned Skippy! -- greg@gregfolkert.net "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Post #382,700 by boxley 10/25/13 5:24:27 PM Reply	agreed, it's all earned Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,706 by Ashton 10/25/13 5:36:31 PM Reply	There you Go Again with the snide self-cancelling phrases Now you want to desecrate the simple-valuez description of *earned!* No Sale: when "earned" means: a few keystrokes at a remote terminal scrapes-off a $M here and there; (I'm sure you have other John Galtean obscurantism to go with this one, but lay-on Mac~~duff~~Box..)
Post #382,708 by boxley 10/25/13 5:44:09 PM Reply	Re: There you Go Again with the snide self-cancelling phrase when "earned" means: a few keystrokes at a remote terminal scrapes-off a $M here and there; you can call it anything you want as long as it is taxed at the same rate as my paltry swipes at a keyboard Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,715 by Ashton 10/25/13 6:16:55 PM Reply	There's Shrub-grade mechanical-stubbornness.. for All t'see.
Post #382,704 by boxley 10/25/13 5:31:15 PM Reply	oh, you mean like this? 10% vat Joe sells you $100 goods for $110 as original supplier with $10 going to the tax man you sell same goods to Bawb for $220 with $20 going to the tax man Bawb sells for $330 with $30 going to the tax man so far tax man has picked pockets for 60% of the net cost, how cool is that? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,710 by drook 10/25/13 6:10:53 PM 10/25/13 6:11:30 PM Reply	That's not how it works, do your homework -- Drew Edited by drook Oct. 25, 2013, 06:11:30 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #382,735 by folkert 10/26/13 3:30:06 AM Reply	Why... when you will gladly will... Or someone else here will. He "knows how it works" and doesn't give a damn how it really works. He is just being himself. -- greg@gregfolkert.net "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Post #382,686 by danreck 10/25/13 10:53:53 AM Reply	Re: "as mind numbingly incomprehensible as ours plus VAT"? Christian, You make a good point and I stand excoriated and dejected by your superior intellect (how's that for some ass kissin'?). There are, in the good old USA, state sales taxes. inheritance taxes, property taxes, local sales taxes, wheel taxes, FICA, Medicare, gasoline, phone surtaxes, gas and electric surtaxes, etc... and they are mind numbingly incomprehensible when one looks around and sees the human condition is not much improved (potholes still aren't filled, cheeldrun still underperform on tests, etc...) That said, this is exactly the same thing happening in Great Britain PLUS they have a VAT (a national tax) which we far superior and exceptional Americans still do not have. Yet. So in essence and more to directly answering your question - the VAT currently is over and above the complexities of the American system. Just a few pedantic thoughts, Dan
Post #382,696 by CRConrad 10/25/13 3:17:14 PM Reply	Nope, you're still not getting it. Dan Reck-lessly offers:"That said, this is exactly the same thing happening in Great Britain PLUS they have a VAT (a national tax) which we far superior and exceptional Americans still do not have. Yet." Uh, no. They don't, AFAIK, have any "sales tax" apart from the VAT, but you yourself say that you do: "state sales taxes ... local sales taxes ... gasoline, phone surtaxes, gas and electric surtaxes". So it still seems it's the American system that has the same thing they do in Great Britain, PLUS several different varieties of sales- and surtaxes; it's the American system that is "mind numbingly incomprehensible" over and above the complexities of the British one, not the other way around as you're trying to make it out. If you want to be pedantic, it's usually wise to begin by making sure you're _right_ first. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #382,697 by mmoffitt 10/25/13 3:28:11 PM Reply	Quite right.
Post #382,703 by danreck 10/25/13 5:29:03 PM Reply	So, in essence, you are Pete by proxy I see how you Europeans stick together now. Very interesting. I see what's happening here now. I call Pete out and he sends you in to out pedant me. Well, mister, I can right shift this thread with the very best of them. The VAT is indeed just like a sales tax but it is not CALLED a sales tax and a sales tax (although predominately a state and not federally imposed item) is like a VAT but not CALLED one then we both are right and we both are wrong. Game, set, and match for us both. That should boost each of our respective self esteems - a true win-win. Who said that exceptionalism can't be humble? Your turn to tell me that I am still wrong because I said it was a sales tax PLUS a VAT which is technically true but I will deflect the subject over and over until you are too tired to continue. Just letting you know in advance. Your turn. Sidebar - I haven't been in a Flame quarantine in quite a few years. Should we save that for when we are really pissed or just start now? I mean, I'm sure I cannot live up to your standards, but I have been learning a few things now that I have a teenager in the house. Just a few thoughts, Dan
Post #382,705 by boxley 10/25/13 5:32:07 PM Reply	naw, save that for the good stuff Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,711 by CRConrad 10/25/13 6:12:34 PM Reply	Mine's only ten, but he's precocious. So I might have learned nearly as much as you. But, the spin-off-a-thread functionality from the old Z isn't here, so I can't be bothered. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #382,713 by Ashton 10/25/13 6:14:42 PM Reply	Now then, Dan--may I call you 'Dan', Dan? If this dry-run on florid amateur forensic fisticuffs is aborted, for a bit: I await your Review of the mentioned tomes: these shall require of you authentic attention to discursive, oft [actually!-] subtle means of getting across --the essence of various zeitgeists.. too-many-words?--OK: telling How it Was, so you can feel it. (Will that do?) I have supposed.. that you will deem the time invested as Worth-it; I may be wrong. Advance-apology could be an ez-out--but I won't give that. Fact is, within this doomed anti-culture of rampant diseasedvulture-capitalism: damn few with families and oodles of techno-toys as diversions: Will read lengthy tomes (other than escape-type stories)==they. no. time. Maybe you, too. Oh well. Oh, and: iffen ya means to inject Annie-Randish stuff about Econ and all who sail in that miserable pseudo-nonscience all over the place, may I direct your attention to my post today in the Money/Mammon forum? (It seems that holy-Science has finally turned a spotlight onto those who Believe-in Certain-knowledge of what a Debt/GDP Ratio (is that a koan?) MUST BE and your subtext-messages recently have strongly implied that you are a Card-carrying Acolyte of all Econ-mumbo-jumbo du jour/du yester-jour. (I Hope Not, 'cause I'd like to continue to believe that you aren't a self-styled Gnostic on these evanescent/unfathomable intentionalyl-obscurant 'matters'.. of tryin to link Econ-megalo-theories to anything! in Real Life.) Say It Ain't So, Dan! Hey Man!--it's bogus-think: stuff for anal retentive number freaks, as far from wisdom as a one can <-----> get. (Of course I have the Proofs: Google Gödel, then Korzybski, Stuart Chase and maybe Geo. Carlin. 'that enough?) Ta, you smug polysyllabic antidisestablismentarian-outlier/avec coprophagic-grin er, ;^> (iI do regret that we had that just-one fone-con wherein the demons could be compared.. eons ago. But now yer Baaack, sorta?)
Post #382,714 by CRConrad 10/25/13 6:16:17 PM Reply	Go right ahead and call him "Milkman Dan".
Post #382,825 by danreck 10/28/13 9:26:56 AM Reply	Always going for the Meta aren't you Nah Ash, just having a little fun with my old pal Christian (still can't get over "that" irony) and Pete. You know me, I just love to point out how freaking convoluted all dichotomies have become like republican <= democrat, rancid milk is better than rotten cheese, etc http://en.wikipedia....the_United_States versus http://en.wikipedia....he_United_Kingdom It is almost as much fun as pointing out how ignorant it is to debate how to spend money you don't have... :-O I think the word for what I do is agitate or tweak (not to be confused with Twerk, you know). You do the same thing, just a bit more obtuse and hard to pin down. In my own subtle way, I was merely pointing out that George Harrison and Alvin Lee really loved the British Tax codes much better than America's... So much for subtlety. Just a few thoughts, Dan
Post #382,851 by CRConrad 10/28/13 5:05:25 PM Reply	No, you just make an arse of yourself. And it gets boring quicker all the time, the older I get. That's why I can't really be bothered all that much any more. So have fun gibbering away to yourself. Or try the BOx? -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #382,856 by boxley 10/28/13 5:41:31 PM Reply	sure, here crc, have some grapes Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #382,859 by CRConrad 10/28/13 7:12:28 PM Reply	Naah, grapes are far too sweet... ...for a sour old fart like me. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #382,743 by a6l6e6x 10/26/13 11:50:39 AM Reply	Re: European Are you sure you don't mean "You're a peon?" Or perhaps even "You're a pee on?" :) And I'm saying that having been born in Europe. Alex American by choice.

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