I think it's really clear that Americans don't really

Post #377,751 by jake123 7/8/13 9:46:27 PM Reply	I think it's really clear that Americans don't really grok just how badly the rest of the world sees you now. The USA's moral authority is gone... gone for at least a generation. You guys all seem to think that the legalistic little games you play among yourselves mean anything to the people who don't get even the bare legal protection from the USA's authority machinery that you citizens have. You're wrong. Even among yourselves there's a set of rules for your elites and another set of rules for everyone else. For the rest of us, the only rule is that they USA will do what it wants to, and if that means killing whole families that get in the way, that's just how it is. Let's not forget that the reaction to most of the stuff that's been revealed to you by the USA powers that be has been a big meh when it comes to non-Americans... and the simple truth is that most Americans don't know most of what's going on, because you've got a glittering entertainment industry known as "journamalism" that solely exists to make sure it never really sinks in so that your elites can continue to profit.
Post #377,753 by Another Scott 7/8/13 10:31:59 PM Reply	Yes, we have big blinders. Yes, we have a different set of rules for outside the borders than inside. And yes, too often we get on our high horses and preach to others while ignoring the beams in our own eyes. But little of the stuff Snowden has released is new in its broad outlines. The documents apparently fill in a few more details, but that's about it. But in the process he broke his oath to protect classified information, and he ran away to our adversaries with other classified information while playing "I will not hide myself because I know I have not done anything wrong / it's not about me" martyr. The revelations were much more startling in the Church Committee hearings in the 1970s and in The Puzzle Palace in 1982 - http://www.amazon.co...on/dp/0140067485/ The NSA's core job is to monitor communications outside the US and crossing the borders - they say so right on their web page: http://www.nsa.gov/ Our Mission The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information. Snowden's suddenly being Shocked, Shocked about the NSA monitoring everything crossing the border is disingenuous. This stuff has been widely known since the 1970s at the latest. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,765 by boxley 7/9/13 8:48:34 AM Reply	ahem, note the "outside of the borders" storing metadata from all verizon callers kinda exceeds that detail a tad Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,766 by Another Scott 7/9/13 9:09:19 AM Reply	They can't use Americans' data without a warrant. HTH.
Post #377,770 by pwhysall 7/9/13 9:48:39 AM Reply	s/can't/can't in theory/
Post #377,773 by boxley 7/9/13 10:28:35 AM Reply	wrong, ana analyst can choose to check the data Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,775 by Another Scott 7/9/13 11:06:19 AM Reply	Re: wrong, ana analyst can choose to check the data http://en.wikipedia....es_to_disclosures FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,784 by boxley 7/9/13 12:32:46 PM Reply	live boy, etc Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,786 by Another Scott 7/9/13 12:54:26 PM Reply	More words please. If you're insinuating blackmail, well illegal actions can happen no matter what the law is. If you're saying that I support authority for anything short of a "dead girl/live boy" situation, you're wrong. If not, more words please. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,787 by boxley 7/9/13 1:26:28 PM Reply	sounds like you would excuse the live boy scenario interview with ex nsa analyst http://dailycaller.c...william-binney/4/ Binney: ThatÂs my point. When you ask how much damage these leaks have done to our capability, theyÂve actually done absolutely nothing. The terrorists were monitoring all of this information anyway, so they had a pretty good idea of what was being collected. So, who are we keeping this from? ItÂs not the terrorists. We are really keeping it from the American public. Because thatÂs who theyÂre collecting data about. And thatÂs who theyÂre keeping it secret from. The terrorists already knew all this stuff. I just want America back, so what if malcontents kill a few hundred every year Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,789 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:37:34 PM Reply	Back to when? The NSA was created in 1949. They've been doing this stuff (collecting foreign signals intelligence) - it's part of their charter - for 64 years. What America do you want to go back to? Seriously. This stuff isn't going away as long as the NSA and related agencies exist. More oversight and transparency is better, but the need is there and there will be people doing it. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,792 by boxley 7/9/13 1:50:42 PM Reply	foreign, get them out of the domestic pool Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,794 by Another Scott 7/9/13 1:57:48 PM Reply	How? They say they do that now. Again, even if they keep 5 years of records of phone calls in the US, they can't tie that information to a particular US person without a warrant. And they can't get a warrant unless it's related to a foreign intelligence investigation (with some exceptions - like the Boston Marathon bombings, apparently). How would they do what you suggest differently than what they say they're doing now? Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,797 by boxley 7/9/13 2:11:56 PM Reply	rm -rf /domestic_data_collection Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,798 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:12:21 PM Reply	You're just trolling now.
Post #377,800 by boxley 7/9/13 2:17:05 PM Reply	nope, remove all domestic data from their servers send all the police swat teams to afghanistan to give real soldiers a break. If they dont want to go, put on a blue suit, take some ridealongs with real police officers then get them on patrol. Put real strong doors on the cockpits and send the tsa home. We are spending billions to give the elites tools to suppress us. Let them go back to stealing the old fashioned way. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,801 by rcareaga 7/9/13 2:31:00 PM Reply	See, Scott, now you've got me agreeing ...with boxley. It is foolish for us to leave all this apparatus of oppression lying around. Even had it been used responsibly to date—HA!—it will inevitably be abused more and more going forward. Will we get to outright Stalinism? I don't know, but it should be troubling to all that we've approached as closely as we have these early innings to High Brezhnevism. It's not going to be easy—it may not be possible—to back this truck up the hill, but anyone with eyes to see has to have an idea of what's waiting for us at the bottom of the road. I don't want to go there. cordially,
Post #377,803 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:34:47 PM Reply	I know the arguments. I just don't see it. :-)
Post #377,807 by rcareaga 7/9/13 2:48:46 PM Reply	I hope I'm being unwontedly gloomy ...and that your own sunny optimism proves the cannier read. Doubt it, though. cordially,
Post #377,802 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:33:57 PM Reply	How? Omar from Upper Volta has a Verizon phone. Is he a US person or not? How about if he's on a travel visa visiting the US and gets a cheap phone? How about if he takes that Verizon phone to Canada. How can you tell before-hand whether he's a US person or not? 325.86.998.123 (or any other example bogus IP number you choose) - is that a US person or not? How can you guarantee that it's not domestic? If you say to the NSA - "you cannot collect any domestic information, not even for a millisecond" - you effectively prevent them from doing their job. Might as well close the place down. That's fine if you want to close the NSA down, but that's not fine if you expect the NSA to collect foreign intelligence. The NSA having a database of US metadata that is not tied to individuals is not suppressing me. YMMV. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,806 by drook 7/9/13 2:41:43 PM Reply	Technical question How much of the data going in and out of the country still does it by wire (or glass) and how much by satellite? Once upon a time you didn't call Europe without going over a transatlantic cable. Seems pretty straightforward to limit their access only to the points where something leaves the country. Yes, this leaves cases of foreigners here, or Americans abroad, but it gets us a hell of a lot closer to their documented mandate. -- Drew
Post #377,809 by Another Scott 7/9/13 2:52:34 PM Reply	They seem to monitor all kinds of EM radiation. Maps. http://www.nsa.gov/sigint/faqs.shtml 1. What is Signals Intelligence? SIGINT involves collecting foreign intelligence from communications and information systems and providing it to customers across the U.S. government, such as senior civilian and military officials. They then use the information to help protect our troops, support our allies, fight terrorism, combat international crime and narcotics, support diplomatic negotiations, and advance many other important national objectives. NSA/CSS collects SIGINT from various sources, including foreign communications, radar and other electronic systems. This information is frequently in foreign languages and dialects, is protected by codes and other security measures, and involves complex technical characteristics. NSA/CSS needs to collect and understand the information, interpret it, and get it to our customers in time for them to take action. Our workforce is deeply skilled in a wide range of highly technical fields that allow them to this work, and they develop and employ state-of-the-art tools and systems that are essential to success in today's fast-changing communications and information environment. Our researchers are working constantly to help us anticipate and prepare for future developments. Some internet connectivity maps are here - http://www3.nd.edu/~...y/gallery_old.htm China tries to monitor everything on their network. They don't succeed. http://www.theatlant...een-reset/306650/ My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,943 by Ashton 7/11/13 11:51:22 PM Reply	Nice piece by Fallows.. And the last ¶ kinda puts in perspective those Other Great Questions. (No guesstimated Answers to any of those: a wise choice, I wot. But that was in 2008, Are we There yet?) Got one here, though, 'Eat the Rich' / It's the only way to be Sure.
Post #377,808 by boxley 7/9/13 2:50:47 PM Reply	Re: How? cdma phones dont work elsewhere. If Omar is traveling in canada who gives a rats ass? If Omar is plotting to do bad things to americans he will be ratted out in canada or be made to smuggle dope from mexico. Who cares. If Omar makes it here and starts running amok hopefully a pissed off citizen can put paid to his anguish. Why not, we do it for the criminals. http://www.nydailyne...article-1.1380615 Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,810 by Another Scott 7/9/13 3:00:42 PM Reply	Multiband phones are common. Verizon has them. What if Omar is on the border between the US and Canada? The point I'm trying to make is, there are complications introduced by modern communications that make deciding who is and who is not a "US person" simply by looking at metadata difficult. Someone anywhere in the world can use VPN or lots of other things to make it appear that they're somewhere else. AFAIK, anyone can get a virtual machine on Amazon's servers if they're willing to pay the price (or if not, there are certainly ways around whatever rules are in place). Are they a US person? How can you tell if you're just looking at metadata? The government and the NSA says they have rules and procedures in place to try to address those complications. We can choose to believe them or not, just like we can choose to believe Snowden and Greenwald or not. We can argue that more transparency and more restrictions are needed, or not. But I don't think we can say that the task that the NSA has is easy or that it is trivial to exclude information from US persons. That doesn't pass the simplest of tests, IMHO. I think I'm done for now. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,811 by boxley 7/9/13 3:21:10 PM Reply	sawright, Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,956 by CRConrad 7/12/13 12:44:31 PM Reply	He "ran away to [y]our adversaries"? Which darn adversaries? If you have any adversaries, they can't be Russia or China; the Cold War is over. In stead, ever since your staunch ally Putin managed to conflate 9/11 with Chechnya in your War On Terrierism, he's been your BFF, not your "adversary"; and ever since you sold lock, stock and barrel -- plus the kitchen sink, your ass, and your soul -- to the Chinese, they're your owners, not your "adversaries". The only "adversaries" you have left at present are foes worthy of, oh, I dunno, Guatemala or Lithuania: North Korea, Venezuela, and Iran. But yes, with bullshit like this you are of course turning much of the civilsed world _into_ "adversaries"; dunno if we're quite there yet, though. Here's a hint for the meantime: Precisely that kind of overblown rhetoric -- He Is Not A Whistleblower Because He Divulged Secrets To Our Adversaries, And By The Way, He Is Not A Whistleblower Because That's Been Known Since The 1970's So It's Nothing New (See the tiniest bit of a contradiction there, do we?) -- is a big part of it. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #377,960 by Another Scott 7/12/13 1:08:28 PM Reply	Shorthand. The USA and China have diverging interests in several areas (in some respects with North Korea, in some respects with Iran, international boundaries in sea lanes, etc.) The USA and Russia have diverging interests in several areas (in Syria and before that in Libya, natural gas, press and NGO freedom of operation in Russia, etc.) Yes, all countries have diverging interests, but it's a little more intense in those two cases. "Adversaries" may be too strong, but there is a great deal of tension in the relationships even if we don't come to blows. "If you owe the bank $1000, the bank owns you. But if you owe the bank $1,000,000, you own the bank." ;-) China needs to buy US bonds more than the US needs money from China - http://www.guardian....conomy-china-debt I think my arguments about Snowden's actions have been a bit more nuanced than your last paragraph, but readers can make up their own minds. I won't punish everyone by trying to go through them again. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #378,010 by CRConrad 7/13/13 8:08:25 AM Reply	YOUR arguments, sure. But you're not the USA. You're a lot better than the administration at expressing nuances. Your country as a whole, that _is_ coming off pretty much as I compressed your arguments. (And also, of course, as an interfering overbearing bully and so on -- as usual. It's just getting to be too much of the usual.) -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #378,011 by Another Scott 7/13/13 8:21:09 AM Reply	Can't argue that.

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