First, I never said "reproduction was a requirement".

Post #377,452 by mmoffitt 7/3/13 1:11:21 PM 7/3/13 1:21:10 PM Reply	First, I never said "reproduction was a requirement". I did say that the only societal benefit from marriage was procreation. I also qualified that as my view and asked if anyone could offer any other benefit. What I got was a lot of handwaving arguments that "it makes people feel better" and other such nonsense. Hardly refutation. Second, your very first line makes a claim without proof. "Marriage = Marriage" is what the fricking DOMA case was about. That is, it was the issue to be decided. You make that claim without proof and then go on to say that because your unproven claim is valid, there is an equal protection issue. But if you don't accept "on faith" your premise, then there can be no equal protection claim. Surely you can follow that. With regard to reproduction, I think I've made a compelling case that until the decision in Windsor, reproduction was a reasonable expectation of marriage. Whatever the merits of the decision it is clear that there was no logical basis for an equal protection claim. The fact that a "Marriage = Marriage" claim is made in the absence of any evidence to prove such, despite the biological differences between the relationships and more than two thousand years of experience showing clearly that marriage usually resulted in children of the married couple, you want me to "just accept" the truth of that claim without proof. And you need me to do that in order for you to assert an equal protection claim. And I'm the one playing fast and loose with the rules of logic? I'll make it simple for you. You assert "Marriage = Marriage". What means "equal"? equal: like in quality, nature, or status http://www.merriam-w.../dictionary/equal One quality of heterosexual marriage is that it can and most often does result in new human beings whose DNA is composed entirely of the married couple's DNA. Does this quality exist in homosexual marriages? No, it does not. Hence, "Marriage != Marriage". qed. Edit: In anticipation that I'll be called a bigot for saying that, let me point out, so that it is clear, I'm not saying one relationship is superior to the other. I'm only pointing out what I think is obvious to even the most casual observer. The relationships are different. One lacks at least one quality of the other. That, I think we can agree, makes them different. Consequently, they can be treated differently by the state without raising an equal protection injury. Edited by mmoffitt July 3, 2013, 01:21:10 PM EDT First, I never said "reproduction was a requirement". I did say that the only societal benefit from marriage was procreation. I also qualified that as my view and asked if anyone could offer any other benefit. What I got was a lot of handwaving arguments that "it makes people feel better" and other such nonsense. Hardly refutation. Second, your very first line makes a claim without proof. "Marriage = Marriage" is what the fricking DOMA case was about. That is, it was the issue to be decided. You make that claim without proof and then go on to say that because your unproven claim is valid, there is an equal protection issue. But if you don't accept "on faith" your premise, then there can be no equal protection claim. Surely you can follow that. With regard to reproduction, I think I've made a compelling case that until the decision in Windsor, reproduction was a reasonable expectation of marriage. Whatever the merits of the decision it is clear that there was no logical basis for an equal protection claim. The fact that a "Marriage = Marriage" claim is made in the absence of any evidence to prove such, despite the biological differences between the relationships and more than two thousand years of experience showing clearly that marriage usually resulted in children of the married couple, you want me to "just accept" the truth of that claim without proof. And you need me to do that in order for you to assert an equal protection claim. And I'm the one playing fast and loose with the rules of logic? I'll make it simple for you. You assert "Marriage = Marriage". What means "equal"? equal: like in quality, nature, or status http://www.merriam-w.../dictionary/equal One quality of heterosexual marriage is that it can and most often does result in new human beings whose DNA is composed entirely of the married couple's DNA. Does this quality exist in homosexual marriages? No, it does not. Hence, "Marriage != Marriage". qed. Collapse All History
Post #377,459 by Another Scott 7/3/13 3:04:01 PM Reply	On your addendum. I don't agree with your train of thought. You say the essential difference between straight and gay marriage is the mixing of genes. But as CRC has pointed out, gays can mix their genes via IVF the same way that straights can. The state doesn't give tax preferences based on how the dependent child entered the family. In the tax code, the benefits of marriage (joint filing, claiming exemptions, inheritance, stepped-up basis on home sale, etc., etc., etc.) don't have anything to do with children. They're a benefit of marriage. The tax code benefits of children are explicitly different. I really don't think that continuing to restate your strongly held opinion is helping your case. Society has moved on. We don't issue marriage licenses with the expectation that blacks won't marry whites, or that husbands will have 5 wives, or that brides will be less than 16 years old any more, either. Your citing expectations of children does not change the fact that the law and the rules do not impose that requirement, and the tax code specifically addresses children under different deductions, exemptions, etc., than for marriage itself. The equality argument is based on the equality of people. Not that "breeders" are better than "non-breeders". If legally married people have certain benefits and responsibilities, then it doesn't matter if that legal marriage is religious or secular, or between people who are fertile or those that aren't, or ... Marriage = Marriage because people must be treated equally under the law. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,460 by CRConrad 7/3/13 3:15:18 PM Reply	Yes you did. But never mind that; let's talk people in stead Mike Moffitts: First, I never said "reproduction was a requirement". I did say that the only societal benefit from marriage was procreation. Yeah, that's what I meant: A requirement for you to see it as worthy of the same recognition by society. I also qualified that as my view and asked if anyone could offer any other benefit. What I got was a lot of handwaving arguments that "it makes people feel better" and other such nonsense. Hardly refutation. Refutation that you blithely refused (and still refuse) to recognise, check. Second, your very first line makes a claim without proof. "Marriage = Marriage" is what the fricking DOMA case was about. That is, it was the issue to be decided. Sigh... I think I see where this went wrong, and it's much earlier even than Scott dug out. Let's go right back and define our terms from the beginning. Marriage: A free and voluntary union of two people, two persons (See [1], [2]). [1]: Person = Person -- People are all equal to each other, regardless of race, religion, or... Sexual orientation. [2]: Free and voluntary -- We don't force someone to marry someone in particular, nor stop them from marrying whom they want. People, persons: Actual human beings, with heads and hearts and hands and hopes and cunts and cocks... And rights and duties. (And different people like to stick those dicks into different kinds of people -- but the rights and duties are still the same for all the people, however icky their dick-sticking habits.) Marriage: An abstract entity, a concept to be reasoned and discussed and legislated about... But not an actual person that can have any rights. (Which is good, so we don't have to argue with each and every "marriage" about which people it has a right to include; it's much easier to argue with actual people in stead.) So, yeah, sorry, I was a bit unclear -- too brief -- before. Let me rephrase that: Marriage for some people = Marriage for other people Or perhaps like this: Some people's right to marriage = Other people's right to marriage To reiterate your point again, from the post I replied to above: Heterosexual marriages and Homosexual marriages (I think we can agree) are different relationships if only because homosexual relationships are incapable of producing children. Sure. So what? It's about the people, Mike. You're discriminating against _some_people_ who want to marry _other_people_. Never mind the "marriage" -- what is that? Would Joe's and Jack's marriage license, right there at the back of their dresser drawer under all the old receipts, feel insulted to hear you disparage it here? Would Jill's and Jenny's wedding rings be outraged at you denying their right to equal treatment? No, of course not; "a marriage" can't have any "rights". People have rights. You seem to want to reserve the right to marry whomeverthefuck we want (and have our marriage recognised by the state with tax breaks and other benefits) for you and me and our wives, and people like us -- but deny it to Joe and Jack and Jill and Jenny. It doesn't matter one bit what "benefit society has" from your marriage, or Joe's and Jack's, or Jill's and Jenny's -- the question is, what "benefit" does society have from you and your wife, or Joe and Jack, or Jill and Jenny? And what does it -- society -- owe you all? Does it owe you and your wife a little more -- official recognition of your marriage, say -- than Joe and Jack or Jill and Jenny? Saying everyone is equal regardless of sexual orientation, but you and I can marry and have our marriages recognised by society, while Joe and Jack or Jill and Jenny can't... Didn't people used to be "equal but different" in your South, too, when we were kids? (Heh -- even as to whom they could marry, or not, as the case might have been... The parallel is even more apt than I thought at first.) -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #377,640 by mmoffitt 7/6/13 11:36:52 AM Reply	My last bit. A little clarification. You're discriminating against _some_people_ who want to marry _other_people_. No, I'm not. What I am saying is that same-sex marriage and heterosexual marriage are two different relationships (a point you conceded). I have no opposition to homosexual marriage. But I cannot accept that whatever "marriage" means to a same-sex couple can ever be the "same" or "equal" to the long-time, widely held, virtually universal definition that applied to heterosexual marriage because my senses (and biological facts) dictate otherwise. Is there significant overlap in the two distinct relationships? I've really no idea, but I suspect that there is. Is there sufficient overlap (or "sameness") to overlook the fact that when legislation was passed concerning "marriage" it meant something different? I don't know. But I don't think it's hatred or bigotry or fear that causes one to pose that question. We've changed the definition of what it means to be married. Isn't it appropriate at this time to review all legislation concerning marriage and (if necessary) alter it to fit the new definition? In my view, it is. That's what I'm saying. And I just can't stand this bit... Some people's right to marriage = Other people's right to marriage. What right? Where in hell is the text of US Constitution that guarantees a person a right to marry? And don't give me that handwaving "Pursuit of Happiness" bullshit. If marriage == happiness then surely more than 1/2 of them would survive. If marriage is a right, my bachelor brother-in-law has had his rights denied him. No one has a "right to marry." The idea is ridiculous. The notion comes from a hyperbolic statement in a USSC decision that, too, had no basis in fact or law. Finally, Scott and others have pointed out that homosexuals can get donor sperm or donor eggs and have children (those making that argument have either failed to acknowledge or refuse to accept that this is different from the usual and customary manner in which heterosexual marriages produce children). They further point out that (in some states) homosexual couples can adopt. In all cases, this is an experiment. We've no idea what long-term effects not having a father and a mother will have on children as they mature. The most similar situation we do have some knowledge of is children of divorced parents. Those kids, too, often live in a one-sex household and the impact of that, in at least some cases, is significant and not always pleasant. All of that said, I'm not opposed to performing this experiment (children growing up in homosexual households) on the next generation, provided that everyone acknowledges that it is an experiment that may have a consequential impact on the children raised in those households and upon society as a whole. Just remember, the lemming who refuses to run is not always the one making a mistake.
Post #377,644 by Another Scott 7/6/13 12:07:00 PM Reply	Wake up. People in the US have the right to marriage. See Loving v Virginia from 1967. http://www.law.corne...0388_0001_ZO.html Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose. The mere fact of equal application does not mean that our analysis of these statutes should follow the approach we have taken in cases involving no racial discrimination where the Equal Protection Clause has been arrayed against a statute discriminating between the kinds of advertising which may be displayed on trucks in New York City, Railway Express Agency, Inc. v. New York, 336 U.S. 106 (1949), or an exemption in Ohio's ad valorem tax for merchandise owned by a nonresident in a storage warehouse, Allied Stores of Ohio, [p9] Inc. v. Bowers, 358 U.S. 522 (1959). In these cases, involving distinctions not drawn according to race, the Court has merely asked whether there is any rational foundation for the discriminations, and has deferred to the wisdom of the state legislatures. In the case at bar, however, we deal with statutes containing racial classifications, and the fact of equal application does not immunize the statute from the very heavy burden of justification which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes drawn according to race. [...] There is patently no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification. The fact that Virginia prohibits only interracial marriages involving white persons demonstrates that the racial classifications must stand on their own justification, as measures designed to maintain White Supremacy. [n11] We have consistently denied [p12] the constitutionality of measures which restrict the rights of citizens on account of race. There can be no doubt that restricting the freedom to marry solely because of racial classifications violates the central meaning of the Equal Protection Clause. [...] These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men. tldr: Equal means Equal. HTH! Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,647 by mmoffitt 7/6/13 2:19:48 PM Reply	Racial discrimination is a different issue entirely.
Post #377,648 by Another Scott 7/6/13 2:22:57 PM Reply	Equal protection is Equal protection. QED.
Post #377,651 by mmoffitt 7/6/13 2:54:28 PM Reply	Can we discriminate against polygamists? If so, why? Who are you to say their "love" isn't real? I don't want to go down this road, but Christian already conceded a "difference in relationship" on the topic at hand. There was no such difference in relationship when the issue was race. Haven't we beat this up enough? You have your view and I have the correct one. I can live with that. Can you? ;0)
Post #377,653 by Another Scott 7/6/13 3:10:21 PM Reply	Is polygamist marriage legal in the US? No. Even immigrants that have multiple wives must obey US law that prohibits polygamy. http://www.legalzoom...t-legal-immigrate Under US law, legal marriage = legal marriage because of the 14th Amendment (among other things). Haven't we beat this up enough? You have your view and I have the correct one. I can live with that. Can you? ;0) Sure. You can have the last word. (For a while... :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #377,662 by mmoffitt 7/6/13 5:13:02 PM Reply	How about Amendment 10? AFAIK, "marriage" is a State thing, right? The US Constitution is silent on it, right? That would mean it's up to the States, right? Oh, but wait. You're from up north, right? ;0)
Post #377,667 by boxley 7/6/13 6:31:41 PM Reply	was legal in utah before statehood legal in many parts of the world, even in texas. When the feds told qanah parker he could only have one wife, he told the agent that the agent could go in the house and tell them. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,661 by boxley 7/6/13 5:01:37 PM Reply	uh, no. Just wont allow them to get stamped by the gummint Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Post #377,663 by mmoffitt 7/6/13 5:14:31 PM Reply	Concur. The state no longer has an interest in marriage.
Post #377,681 by Ashton 7/7/13 5:08:00 AM Reply	Re: Wake up. ... Interesting that they cited Korematsu http://www.law.corne...0323_0214_ZS.html (presumably) as an Example of legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination. But not an explicit ... a tacit deduction to be made: because they granted Cert. And USSC did so in 12/'43--thus denying a reversal of Korematsu's appeal against: A) Being singled-out for banishment from this 'military area'--only because of his Japanese ancestry. USSC declared that, then: Constitutional. B) Yet while the 'banishment' was found Constitutional, the matter of 'reporting to assembly centers' aka concentration camps was explicitly Not-considered in this Cert, even though the Cert Finding itself, said 3. Even though evacuation and detention in the assembly center were inseparable, the order under which the petitioner was convicted was nevertheless valid. P. 223. CERTIORARI, 321 U.S. 760, to review the affirmance of a judgment of conviction. Emphasis? hell when you read it: that bold + underline comes out in the Voice! Another example, IMO of the pseudo-science of the law + [or via] an {undefinable} level of Judicial 'discretion'--which here seems to limn Piet Hein: sweet and undefinable, like the pineapple All of which illustrates, I wot--that it is an illusory koan, We are a nation of laws, not men. And even if one buys that, given the n-thousands of cases [imagine pre-computer Look-Ups, employing miles of bookshelves] ... rhetoric shall be indispensable) whether or not Tyranny of Words is accepted as an authoritative/relevant document--thus assuring all that follows from the ~~missing Referents~~ er, Paper Chase. ie. One can never prove the ~equivalence of racial- gender- discrimination--within the zeitgerist of a given time without nuance approaching the ineffable: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Fred_Korematsu When such orders were issued for the West Coast, Korematsu instead became a fugitive. The legality of the internment order was upheld by the United States Supreme Court in Korematsu v. United States, but Korematsu's conviction was overturned decades later after the disclosure of new evidence challenging the necessity of the internment, which had been [] withheld from the courts by the U.S. government* during the war. To commemorate his journey as a civil rights activist, the "Fred Korematsu Day of Civil Liberties and the Constitution" was observed for first time on January 30, 2011, by the state of California, and first such commemoration for an Asian American in the US.[1][2] * Let's dust-off THAT rationale for finally reversing Korematsu's conviction, apply it to The Perpetual War on Terror--and force a Declaration affecting both Exec and Congressional branches: (call it) The War on tError is Over Act; all Rights suspended/stapled/mutilated since 9/11/01 are declared Restored, the Suspensions declared null/void and Icky. Maybe that capacity for endless argument with no appreciation for Scale, is why we see by THIS USSC, just how omnipresent is the execrable Gaming of Systems (as may kill us re any reform of 'finance' (or any timely response to planetary matters)--via premeditated running-out-the clock.] May the next species be capable of self-government: for a First.
Post #377,668 by CRConrad 7/6/13 6:34:26 PM Reply	A distinction without a difference. Mike Moffitts on: What I am saying is that same-sex marriage and heterosexual marriage are two different relationships (a point you conceded). Yeah, sure. But only in the most trivial sense imaginible: Yes, I concede that homosexual marriage is different from heterosexual marriage in that the former is not -- at present -- likely to result in offspring. Well, to be precise: Not the simultaneous traditionally biological offspring of both partners in the marriage. (Though I can see at least one way to get that, too.) What I didn't, and won't, concede is that this difference is in any way whatsoever significant. Marriage is one thing, procreation another, and conflating them is just simply muddled thinking. HTH! -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #377,686 by mmoffitt 7/7/13 1:06:17 PM Reply	And there it is. What I didn't, and won't, concede is that this difference is in any way whatsoever significant. Thank you for making my point. You assume that the relationships are sufficiently similar to raise an equal protection claim. You assume. Not prove. You have not demonstrated that the relationships are sufficiently similar, you've only claimed it. And upon the basis of that unsupported claim, you contend there is an equal protection case. You're certainly not alone in this flawed thinking, and it did prevail in the USSC case, but that hardly makes it "right."
Post #377,689 by drook 7/7/13 1:33:44 PM Reply	Not assume, declare My marriage to my wife is different from your marriage to your wife. Does that mean that laws applying to one can't apply to the other? My wife has short hair dyed pink, and I have a shaved head. How can that possibly be the same as your relationship? We as a society have declared that gender is not a legally significant difference for the purposes of legal protection. No matter how many "differences" you care to point out, you are trying to prove the falsity of a premise. That doesn't work. -- Drew
Post #377,692 by crazy 7/7/13 3:59:28 PM Reply	Oh, he won't answer this one http://en.wikipedia....nt_from_ignorance is his forte'
Post #377,728 by mmoffitt 7/8/13 1:25:35 PM Reply	Where and when was this declaration made? By whom and upon the basis of what? The rationale of the declaration can clearly not be the existence of a one-to-one onto mapping from the set of qualities of homosexual marriages to the set of qualities of heterosexual marriages. In any case, I reject your assertion that any such "declaration" has been made with respect to marriage. Between 1998 and 2012, there were 31 votes in 30 states on this issue, and in all but one case, voters agreed to limit marriage to opposite-sex couples. The single exception was in Arizona, where in 2006 voters rejected a same-sex marriage ban. However, Arizona voters went on to approve a ban in the 2008 election. In November 2012, Minnesota was the 31st state to consider a constitutional provision limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples, and they rejected their proposed ban. http://www.ncsl.org/...n-the-ballot.aspx I don't think "society" at large is with you on this. Not that it matters as the USSC is, apparently.
Post #377,669 by CRConrad 7/6/13 7:21:49 PM Reply	Sorry, you still lost about six levels ago. Wibble the first: And I just can't stand this bit... Some people's right to marriage = Other people's right to marriage. What right? Where in hell is the text of US Constitution that guarantees a person a right to marry Sigh... I'ts not about "right to marriage". It's about equal protection under the law. Here's a fact: Married people get certain benefits under the law -- tax breaks, hospital visitations, inheritance, and so on. Did you know this, or does this come as news to you? This fact is what these discussions are basically all about; has been from the start, is now, and will be until the bigots quit squirming. Do you want to pretend you didn't know this, either? Here's what the heart of the matter is: If people are equal under the law, then all lawfully married people should have the same right to partake of these legal benefits, regardless of whether their spouse is of the same or a different sex as themselves. And *that* is the bit that's guaranteed in your constitution: All people are equal under the law, with the same legal rights and duties. So, sigh, OK, I suppose this is what I should have said: "Some people's right to have their marriage recognized in terms of legal benefits = Other people's right to have their marriage recognized in terms of legal benefits" But honestly: This is too bloody long to fit on a demonstration placard. That doesn't matter, though, because in the context, it is fucking obvious to anyone reasonably fluent in English that this is what the shorthand "Equal right to marriage!" on the placards means. Pretending not to understand this is disingenious in the extreme. But you've quibbled about at the details of this for about five or six posts each from you and me, forcing me to gradually re-write the simple slogan into this fucking huge multiply-qualified definition... You should be ashamed of yourself: Either for being such a dunce that you didn't get what any adult who's ever heard of the question knows, but more probably for just plain quibbling, even though you did know exactly what's at issue. Wibble the second: Finally, Scott and others have pointed out that homosexuals can get donor sperm or donor eggs and have children (those making that argument have either failed to acknowledge or refuse to accept that this is different from the usual and customary manner in which heterosexual marriages produce children). See? Isn't this what I said several exchanges earlier in this conversation? It is all about the sex, the straight hetero children-producing sex. Wibble wibble wibble: ...adopt...experiment...long-term effects...a father and a mother...experiment...yaddayaddayadda Remember that bit I mentioned about fundie and conspiracy whackjobs ranting on and on and on into ever more intricate detail, squirming and weaselling and shifting the goalposts way out of the arena, never acknowledging that on the main big large actual real question, they've been refuted, proven wrong, and lost the discussion long before they got into this silly level of minutiae...? Newsflash: Fags and hags have been raising kids for ages already. So guess what you're coming off as here. Again. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)

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