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New Read closely
National identification cards, a prerequisite to voter registration

In the U.S. the battle is to preserve the right to vote that people already have, which means opposing laws designed to disenfranchise the poor.

In Kenya the ID requirement already exists, so the way to ensure poor people can vote in the next election is to help them get those ID cards.

One goal: Help poor people vote. Different circumstances in two places require different responses.

Oh wait, that's the problem isn't it? You've been listening to the conservative noise machine for so long you've forgotten that there are more than two possible answers to any question, and that the context matters.
--

Drew
New s/conservative/reactionary.
New it exists in Georgia as well, whitehouse should support that
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New I'm pretty sure they have more freedom to do so in Kenya
than they do in Georgia.
New I'm still not getting it. What's the diff?
DrooK writes:
National identification cards, a prerequisite to voter registration
In the U.S. the battle is to preserve the right to vote that people already have, which means opposing laws designed to disenfranchise the poor.
1) The right to vote is a deeply personal right, for poor people as well as rich. If I turn up at DrooK's voting station early in the morning, say "Hi, my name is DrooK!" and vote for the opposite of what DrooK would have wanted, and get DrooK crossed off so he can't vote when he turns up himself in the afternoon, "because he already has" -- isn't that pretty much the worst anyone can do to DrooK, in what's supposed to be a democracy?

2) Had I been asked to prove who I am before being crossed off the list, I couldn't have stolen DrooK's vote. "Got an ID, sir? Driver's license, passport, anything? Thank you." And if Drook's too poor to have a driver's license or a passport, well, that's what free national ID cards are for! (What, you don't have those yet? Well, then obviously you've got to get around to that ASAP.)

3) Seems to me an ID requirement is not necessarily mainly about "disenfranchising" people from voting, but could just as well be viewed as being about STOPPING anyone who wants to from not only disenfranchising but possibly perverting their vote, by stealing it and voting for the opposite of what they would have wanted. At least I'd be fucking nervous if they suddenly abolished the habit of asking for an ID here in Scandalahoovia... I'd start thinking I'd better run over and vote as early as fricking possible in the morning, so somebody else won't go there and do it for me.

4) There ARE black (because that's what this is really all about, innit?) Republican people in America, aren't there? Or at least, sufficiently apolitical black people that they would be willing to pose as some other voter for a few bucks a pop? Once word got out that these are being bussed around from voting station to voting station on election day, posing at each one as some other voter local to that station, would that perhaps lead to a change in your views on what exactly "disenfranchising" means?

5) Just because word hasn't got out yet, are you quite sure you're justified in assuming this isn't happening already...?
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New One of these things is not like the other
http://m.motherjones...-laws-charts-maps

There are a handful of cases of voter fraud. There are trends of thousands of people turned away when trying to vote, and millions more who don't even try -- possibly because they believe they won't be allowed, and even more millions barred because of criminal records.

So yes, let's absolutely focus all our attention on the hypothetical problem.
--

Drew
New Good linky. Thanks.
New When someone has already done the heavy lifting ...
--

Drew
New yup, supressing the crap out of them
http://www.nytimes.c...in-2012.html?_r=0
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Exactly, imagine how much wider the margin would have been
--

Drew
New not really thats why the USSC took out prequal on vote rules
they also pushed back on proving you are a citizen to register. I leaning with nother, in federal elections there should be national laws
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Absolutely
But they shouldn't be laws designed -- or at least demonstrated -- to systematically favor one party or point of view.
--

Drew
New agreed
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New How do you know that?
DrooK writes:
There are a handful of cases of voter fraud. There are trends of thousands of people turned away when trying to vote...
A handful of cases of voter fraud where the fraudster cast a vote for the Democrats, and which the Republicans keep yelling about, yes. Do you think they'd be yelling about the ones where the fraudster cast a vote for the Republicans? How do you know there aren't a HECK of a lot more than "a handful" of those?
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New [sigh]
A dozen verified instances of A. Tens of thousands of confirmed cases of B. "But what if A actually happens a lot?" Sorry, no.
--

Drew
New You investigate.
Lots of dingbats over here have claimed to have collected lists of people who were ineligible to vote. When those lists were checked out, there was usually no there there.

http://www.brennance...Voter%20Fraud.pdf (50 page .pdf)

The Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law carefully examines allegations of fraud to get at the truth behind the claims. The Brennan Center has analyzed purported fraud cited by state and federal courts; multipartisan and bipartisan federal commissions; political party entities; state and local election officials; and authors, journalists, and bloggers. Usually, only a tiny portion of the claimed illegality is substantiated — and most of the remainder is either nothing more than speculation or has been conclusively debunked.

This paper seeks to distill our findings: the truth about voter fraud. It first offers a straightforward definition to avoid the common trap of discussing election irregularities that involve neither voters nor fraud as if they showed voter fraud. It then discusses different alternative reasons more credible than voter fraud to explain many of the recurring allegations. The paper then analyzes, scenario by scenario, some of the more common types of alleged voter fraud and their more likely causes and policy solutions. Finally, the paper presents individual case studies of notorious instances of alleged voter fraud, and finds those allegations to be grossly inflated. For more information, analysis, and opinion about voter fraud, by the Brennan Center and others, please see www.truthaboutfraud.org.


[edit:]

Royal Masset, the former political director for the Republican Party of Texas, concisely tied all of these strands together in a 2007 Houston Chronicle article concerning a highly controversial battle over photo identification legislation in Texas. Masset connected the inflated furor over voter fraud to photo identification laws and their expected impact on legitimate voters:

Among Republicans it is an “article of religious faith that voter fraud is causing us to lose elections,” Masset said. He doesn’t agree with that, but does believe that requiring photo IDs could cause enough of a dropoff in legitimate Democratic voting to add 3 percent to the Republican vote.17


[Emphasis added]

This remarkably candid observation underscores why it is so critical to get the facts straight on voter fraud. The voter fraud phantom drives policy that disenfranchises actual legitimate voters, without a corresponding actual benefit. Virtuous public policy should stand on more reliable supports.


Clearer?

HTH! ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott June 28, 2013, 10:30:56 PM EDT
New there is a lot of voter fraud in florida
usually surrounding absentee ballots and done by the republicans. Thats why there is no laws cracking down on absentee ballots
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New It's the ID requirements that matters.
We have a history in this country of people being disenfranchised by various means - the most notorious being literacy tests and poll taxes.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Literacy_test

Photo IDs can be difficult to obtain and can be used as a means of discrimination. E.g. government offices can be open limited hours, can be away from people's homes and work places. Too many people in the US have very little available time off to take half a day to go to some government office to get an ID. Transportation is difficult in many areas for many people (no car, no money for a taxi, lack of public transportation)

Lots of people don't have birth certificates and obtaining them can be expensive.

Lots of states are passing laws that only certain kinds of photo IDs are acceptable. E.g. college IDs aren't acceptable.

In-person voter fraud is a nanoscopic problem in the US. Why? Because people aren't going to risk a felony arrest to change a politician's vote total by 1.

Republicans are trying to improve their election chances by making it difficult for people they don't like (and who don't like them) to vote. That's all this Voter Fraud!!!111 stuff is about.

http://battlegroundt...-republican-party

At a Dallas event featuring Steve Munisteri, the Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas, Ken Emanuelson, a leader in the Tea Party, said: “I'm going to be real honest with you – the Republican Party doesn't want black people to vote if they’re going to vote 9-to-1 for Democrats.”


Not, "Gee these citizens aren't voting for us. Maybe we need to change or work harder to convince them?", but "We don't like the way you vote, so we're going to work to make sure you can't vote."

Similarly with Hispanics.

Just about every state I've lived in has made one swear on penalty of perjury that the information on a voter registration form is true. After successfully registering, most localities issued a registration card indicating the registration was successful. Some localities recommended that voters bring their card with them when they voted. Others asked for a photo ID. (It's not a problem for me, but I don't like it at all because it's designed to restrict voting to the "right" people.)

Virginia has had a photo ID requirement for a while. They just tightened the requirements this spring: https://acluva.org/1...ns-photo-id-bill/ Note that they haven't decided how to fund these "free" IDs, and even if the state doesn't charge a fee, there are still costs for the poor to obtain such things and there's no evidence that these costs are necessary to solve a problem because there's no evidence the problem exists!

IOW, you can't understand the mania about Voter Fraud!!!111 without understanding the history of voting issues in the US, and the fear that Republicans have that the country won't be controllable by them much longer unless they change the rules.

Personally, I think federal standards for voting rules and procedures are appropriate and long over-due. (E.g. localities shouldn't be able to have 10x the number of voting machines in rich precincts than poor precincts). National IDs (say issued at post offices) would make sense to me, too. But even though people don't think that passports are the first step to FEMA Camps!!!11, apparently a National ID is. Somehow...

FWIW.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New That's what I said in #2 above:
The other Scott writes:
Photo IDs can be difficult to obtain...
That's why I wrote:
And if Drook's too poor to have a driver's license or a passport, well, that's what free national ID cards are for! (What, you don't have those yet? Well, then obviously you've got to get around to that ASAP.)
So how do you guys pay with credit cards (when there isn't a PIN terminal)? How do you rent cars? Are you really saying most people don't have the means to prove their identity to some reasonably-strict generally-accepted standard...?

And here I thought America was weird -- seems I had no idea HOW weird!
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Expand Edited by CRConrad June 28, 2013, 09:39:46 PM EDT
New Not most, but a lot
And the ones who can't tend to be in certain classes ... classes that trend to vote a certain way.
--

Drew
New Yes.
Yes, you did say that. :-)

So how do you guys pay with credit cards (when there isn't a PIN terminal)? How do you rent cars? Are you really saying most people don't have the means to prove their identity to some reasonably-strict generally-accepted standard...?

And here I thought America was weird -- seems I had no idea HOW weird!


Contrary to what Rmoney would have had you believe, everyone doesn't have a house on the beach with a car elevator over here. ;-)

Lots of people don't have credit cards or even a bank account - they live on cash and "check cashing" stores that take an obscene percentage of their pay. One can't rent a car from the big companies without a credit card here, so they don't.

The national minimum wage is $7.25/hr = $290 a week for a 40 hour week. But many people who are making minimum wage don't work 40 hours. (Less than 32 hours is common, so that the employers don't have to pay full-time benefits.)

People who work in restaurants earn a minimum of $2.13 an hour if they are expected to earn tips from patrons. (Their employers are supposed to make sure they earn at least the federal or state minimum, but you can imagine how well that is enforced.)

There are millions of people who are struggling to survive from one week to the next.

At least 16% of the country is officially listed as being in poverty - http://en.wikipedia....the_United_States Roughly 50 million people. Of course, they're not all old enough to vote, but tens of millions of them are.

People like you and me who have a nice house and a mice nice car and a good job and multiple photo IDs aren't the target of these restrictive voting rules. It's the people who are struggling, and those who know that the government can help them improve their lot, that are.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott June 28, 2013, 10:17:05 PM EDT
New There are those here...
That believe having a "governmental issued ID" is tantamount to "THE MAN" getting all up in their business.

This is why there are no real counts of population in many counties of Kentucky, Ten'see, Virginny, West Virginny, No' Carolins, Sout' Carolina, Geo'gia... and many states. The Census is also seen as the same kind of thing.

There are also, left over "oppressed" relatives from the 40s-50s-60s that are scared to get a "Governmental issued ID" because then they'll be able to track them and arrest them just like they did in the south during the Civil Rights movements and retaliations... from said governmental entities.

There is a PLETHORA of irrational, easily justifiable (to "them that believe") reasons to not get a card.

Driving unlicensed is something that does on a LOT... being unlicensed doesn't mean you can't drive a car... just means you can get caught.

This feeling extends to many kinds of peoples here.

Many of these people are Democrats and would vote Democrat... everyday and twice on Sunday, just because. Unfortunately they are easily coerced and usually by Republicans who feel Voter fraud is so huge of an issue, that they expended MILLIONS of dollars putting people in Voting Stations in heavy Democratic regions and challenged a lot of election workers checking and verifying and got huge numbers of democratic voters dis-allowed from voting. Most (all?) of these people were rightfully able to, but due to some "suspicious" doings, they were officially challenged by the Republican "auditor/watcher" (or whatever they called it).

I witnessed it first hand this last National Election. Person was over-stepping his bounds and when my wife went to vote about 3 hours later, there was a different person there and a police officer to make sure the person didn't over step his bounds.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Expand Edited by folkert June 29, 2013, 02:19:02 AM EDT
New One other thing
I figured someone else would have pointed this out by now, but since no one has ...

If people actually *were* posing as someone else as in your first scenario, those people being told "You already voted" would be complaining. I've never heard of a single case of that. Not one.
--

Drew
New Not one?!?
Then what are those "voter fraud" cases the Republicans shout about based on? This just gets weirder and weirder.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New That's what we keep telling you, it doesn't happen
--

Drew
New Not one!
Mainly dead people, people as another "made up" person, Dogs, Cats and other pets, streets, buildings that are named...

Among others irrational things.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
New BS I have posted examples here, from your state
http://now.msn.com/m...r-obama-six-times its no big deal for dems
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New I keep hearing about accusations and investigations
Bat that's not even the scenario I was talking about.

What I haven't seen is anyone claiming to have been turned away from the polls because, "You already voted." Ever.
--

Drew
New many incidents like that have happened
it is usually clerical error that ID might prevent
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New See the Brennan Center report.
It's in a linky somewhere in this thread.

Some of the Voter Fraud!!!11 was people signing the wrong line in the register. IDs wouldn't prevent that. Lots of errors and mixups wouldn't be prevented by IDs.

Voting will never be perfect or error or fraud free. We should continue to prosecute fraud, but these ID rules are not designed to solve a real problem - they're designed to rile up conservatives and to suppress the vote.

(I'm glad we're on the same side about the benefits of having uniform national rules about this stuff.)

Cheers,
Scott.
New People sign *themselves* off a register?!?
Is your system *designed* to invite fraud -- or just to be as weird and cumbersome as possible? Or are the states just too poor to issue pens to election functionaries, so they could put a check-mark next to each voter's entry in the list...?

As Alice said, curioser and curioser.
--
Christian R. Conrad
Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi

(Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
New Sometimes.
I haven't done it recently, so I'm not sure where I did, but I have done so.

Voting rules are set by the individual states.

E.g. Wisconsin in a recent election - http://www.greenbayp...lists-get-ballots

Though a widely publicized law that requires voters to provide photo identification at the ballot box doesn't begin until next year, recall voters will have to sign their names on poll lists before they are given ballots in Tuesday's Democratic primaries, which include elections in Northeastern Wisconsin's 2nd and 14th Senate districts.

"If the voter refuses to sign the poll list, the voter will not be able to vote," said Nathaniel Robinson, elections division administrator with the state Government Accountability Board.

Voters with physical disabilities that prevent them from signing the poll lists are exempt from the rule.

Before the 2011 Voter ID Law took effect June 10, election workers were largely responsible for marking voters' names on poll lists to indicate who voted.

"They occasionally (mark) the wrong name or forget, which can cause problems," Kevin Kennedy, director of the Government Accountability Board, wrote in a statement Friday. "When someone shows up at the polls and finds out he has already been marked as having voted, it raises concerns about election fraud."

Kennedy said requiring voters to sign their names would cut down on clerical errors and also root out genuine cases of fraud.


Except, of course, when a person signs the wrong line as in the Brennan report... :-/

HTH!

Cheers,
Scott.
New in my precinct we show up
photo id in hand and present to a poll worker, he examines the id then produces a list where my name resides. I sign that I have recieved a ballot and he hands me an electronic card to slide into the diebold machine
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New and Diebold decides if your vote selection should be counted
Alex
New no, the local republican party does
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New And most of it was debunked...
http://forum.iwethey...iwt?postid=371652

In the case you mention, she pled no contest - http://webcache.goog...&client=firefox-a

A handful of people out of hundreds of thousands or millions of voters isn't a big problem - it's a nanoscopic problem. And the system is dealing with it just fine without onerous ID and other restrictive voting requirements.

HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New And also too
Most of the time we hear about "extra" votes they're getting caught in real time. People being improperly turned away from the polls get at best an, "Oops, sorry," three months after the election. They don't invalidate elections for votes people *didn't* cast.
--

Drew
New see, dem meh, its ok
found guilty of 4 counts of voter fraud is != debunked
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Readmeinmyposts.
There are identical triplets, too. That doesn't mean they aren't incredibly rare.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...magazine-23062070

Cheers,
Scott.
     it would be sad if it wasn't so funny - (boxley) - (44)
         Please explain - (drook) - (42)
             rfc whitehouse puts out a statement supporting - (boxley) - (41)
                 Really? - (drook) - (40)
                     appears that you could get a job at the whitehouse -NT - (boxley) - (39)
                         Read closely - (drook) - (38)
                             s/conservative/reactionary. -NT - (Ashton)
                             it exists in Georgia as well, whitehouse should support that -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                 I'm pretty sure they have more freedom to do so in Kenya - (jake123)
                             I'm still not getting it. What's the diff? - (CRConrad) - (34)
                                 One of these things is not like the other - (drook) - (11)
                                     Good linky. Thanks. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                         When someone has already done the heavy lifting ... -NT - (drook)
                                     yup, supressing the crap out of them - (boxley) - (4)
                                         Exactly, imagine how much wider the margin would have been -NT - (drook) - (3)
                                             not really thats why the USSC took out prequal on vote rules - (boxley) - (2)
                                                 Absolutely - (drook) - (1)
                                                     agreed -NT - (boxley)
                                     How do you know that? - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                         [sigh] - (drook)
                                         You investigate. - (Another Scott)
                                         there is a lot of voter fraud in florida - (boxley)
                                 It's the ID requirements that matters. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                     That's what I said in #2 above: - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                         Not most, but a lot - (drook)
                                         Yes. - (Another Scott)
                                         There are those here... - (folkert)
                                 One other thing - (drook) - (16)
                                     Not one?!? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                         That's what we keep telling you, it doesn't happen -NT - (drook)
                                         Not one! - (folkert)
                                     BS I have posted examples here, from your state - (boxley) - (12)
                                         I keep hearing about accusations and investigations - (drook) - (7)
                                             many incidents like that have happened - (boxley) - (6)
                                                 See the Brennan Center report. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                                                     People sign *themselves* off a register?!? - (CRConrad) - (4)
                                                         Sometimes. - (Another Scott)
                                                         in my precinct we show up - (boxley) - (2)
                                                             and Diebold decides if your vote selection should be counted -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                 no, the local republican party does -NT - (boxley)
                                         And most of it was debunked... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                             And also too - (drook)
                                             see, dem meh, its ok - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 Readmeinmyposts. - (Another Scott)
         You need to stop reading that crap... - (Another Scott)

*THAT'S WHAT HE MEANT!!!*
149 ms