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New Greenwald says the NSA is getting data on every Verizon call
http://www.guardian....able%29:Position1

It's supposedly for a 3 month period ending July 19th.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Some speculation it's related to the Boston Marathon bombing
http://www.balloon-j.../#comment-4474550

Martin says:
June 6, 2013 at 2:26 am

Hmm. We actually know pretty well what they are collecting. It’s calling number at each end, calling time, calling duration, and approximate caller location at each end. It includes IMSI and IMEI information. It doesn’t include the content of the call. The warrant was issued due to the Boston bombings.

There’s no name, address, billing info, or anything else. They need an individual warrant to get that information.

Basically they’re doing a massive node analysis and if they see nodes that connected with the bombers, they’d then issue an individual warrant for the phone records of the persons that connected with the bombers. I’m not quite sure what the outrage is over this. Google has been doing much worse than this for a decade now. Facebook and Twitter are trying to do the same.


Makes some sense.

The relative lack of official outrage (so far) would lead me to believe that there's a lot more going on under the covers than GG would have us infer.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who has a history of perhaps trusting authority too much, so YMMV.)
New Is it time to go back to using semaphores?
Or smoke signals? :)
Alex
New cloned cell phones
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New I like those with Hershey's Dark Chocolate.
New Just curious.
Is it still true that "The Other Guy is MUCH WORSE!!!"

;0)
New You need to ask?
Bush's people didn't use the FISA court. At least the NSA/FBI did that in this case.

As for whether it's over-reach or tyranny or whatever, we may never know. Depends on whether Congress has sensible hearings about it. (I'm not holding my breath on that.)

FWIW. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Dave Simon (of The Wire) weighs in.
http://davidsimon.co...-shocked-shocked/

[...]

Allow for a comparable example, dating to the early 1980s in a place called Baltimore, Maryland.

There, city detectives once began to suspect that major traffickers were using a combination of public pay phones and digital pagers to communicate their business. And they took their suspicions to a judge and obtained court orders — not to monitor any particular suspect, but to instead cull the dialed numbers from the thousands and thousands of calls made to and from certain city pay phones.

Think about it. There is certainly a public expectation of privacy when you pick up a pay phone on the streets of Baltimore, is there not? And certainly, the detectives knew that many, many Baltimoreans were using those pay phones for legitimate telephonic communication. Yet, a city judge had no problem allowing them to place dialed-number recorders on as many pay phones as they felt the need to monitor, knowing that every single number dialed to or from those phones would be captured. So authorized, detectives gleaned the numbers of digital pagers and they began monitoring the incoming digitized numbers on those pagers — even though they had yet to learn to whom those pagers belonged. The judges were okay with that, too, and signed another order allowing the suspect pagers to be “cloned” by detectives, even though in some cases the suspect in possession of the pager was not yet positively identified.

All of that — even in the less fevered, pre-Patriot Act days of yore — was entirely legal. Why?

Because they aren’t listening to the calls.

[...]


Makes sense. (To me, anyway.)

There's too much hair-on-fire screaming about this stuff. And if we're not careful, rather than sensible oversight we're going to end up with a paroxysm based on emotions that makes things worse (e.g. the crack laws of the mid-'80s).

(via TBogg - http://tbogg.firedog...r-with-ourselves/ )

Cheers,
Scott.
New so willing to let your owners tighten the leash
I have as have others here mentioned that the government has access to the telco backbone and cdr's. Lots of oh noes, that couldn't happen here, and balderdash was the response. Now it is "shrug, no big deal" Didn't take very many years to go from Kruschev banging his shoe on the table to a system that the fucking Stazi would have envied.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
Expand Edited by boxley June 8, 2013, 06:16:34 PM EDT
New You've got me confused with someone else.
New sorry, I thought you were shrugging it off as no big deal
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New There's a difference between accepting Simon's argument...
and shrugging off anything that shreds the Constitution. I think he's right. I think Bush was wrong when he bypassed the FISA court (and more).

I recall arguing that the FISA court was essential in this type of process - http://forum.iwethey...iwt?postid=265382

How were peoples's constitutional rights violated in the Baltimore example?

I don't find "slippery slope" arguments persuasive.

Simon makes some very good points in his comments to readers. His blog software seems to be broken, but http://davidsimon.co...e-2/#comment-8079

David Simon says:
June 8, 2013 at 1:58 am

Yes, well. By that logic any government that attempts to assert itself in any way on behalf of any utilitarian goal can and should be resisted. After all, it will eventually misuse whatever power it is granted. Congratulations, you have made an argument for liberty without responsibility. In the end, nothing viable or worthy is achieved without a balance between those two attributes.


He's good at this. :-)

YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott
New Gruber: Google's comments on PRISM
http://daringfirebal...6/08/google-prism

The dystopia you worry about has not arrived in the US yet.

Things may be different at the Telecos, but I doubt it. They're not (or no longer since the 1970s) going to let the government grab anything they want on communications by US citizens without a warrant.

Things really did change after the Church Committee and the passing of FISA. http://www.historyco...hurch_committee_1

[added some paragraph breaks]

1945-1975: NSA’s Operation Shamrock Secretly Monitors US Citizens’ Overseas Communications

The NSA, working with British intelligence, begins secretly intercepting and reading millions of telegraph messages between US citizens and international senders and recipients. The clandestine program, called Operation Shamrock and part of a larger global surveillance network collectively known as Echelon (see April 4, 2001 and Before September 11, 2001), begins shortly after the end of World War II, and continues through 1975, when it is exposed by the “Church Committee,” the Senate investigation of illegal activities by US intelligence organizations (see April, 1976). [Telepolis, 7/25/2000]

The program actually predates the NSA, originating with the Armed Forces Security Agency (AFSA) then continuing when that turned into NSA (see 1952). [Pensito Review, 5/13/2006] The program operates in tandem with Project Minaret (see 1967-1975).

Together, the two programs spy on both foreign sources and US citizens, especially those considered “unreliable,” such as civil rights leaders and antiwar protesters, and opposition figures such as politicians, diplomats, businessmen, trades union leaders, non-government organizations like Amnesty International, and senior officials of the Catholic Church. The NSA receives the cooperation of such telecommunications firms as Western Union, RCA, and ITT. [Telepolis, 7/25/2000] (Those companies are never required to reveal the extent of their involvement with Shamrock; on the recommendations of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and presidential chief of staff Dick Cheney, in 1975 President Ford extends executive privilege to those companies, precluding them from testifying before Congress.) [Pensito Review, 5/13/2006]

In the 1960s, technological advances make it possible for computers to search for keywords in monitored messages instead of having human analysts read through all communications. In fact, the first global wide-area network, or WAN, is not the Internet, but the international network connecting signals intelligence stations and processing centers for US and British intelligence organizations, including the NSA, and making use of sophisticated satellite systems such as Milstar and Skynet. (The NSA also builds and maintains one of the world’s first e-mail networks, completely separate from public e-mail networks, and highly secret.) At the program’s height, it operates out of a front company in Lower Manhattan code-named LPMEDLEY, and intercepts 150,000 messages a month.

In August 1975, NSA director Lieutenant General Lew Allen testifies to the House of Representatives’ investigation of US intelligence activities, the Pike Committee (see January 29, 1976), that “NSA systematically intercepts international communications, both voice and cable.” He also admits that “messages to and from American citizens have been picked up in the course of gathering foreign intelligence,” and acknowledges that the NSA uses “watch lists” of US citizens “to watch for foreign activity of reportable intelligence interest.” [Telepolis, 7/25/2000]

The Church Committee’s final report will will call Shamrock “probably the largest government interception program affecting Americans ever undertaken.” [Church Committee, 4/23/1976] Shortly after the committee issues its report, the NSA terminates the program. Since 1978, the NSA and other US intelligence agencies have been restrained in their wiretapping and surveillance of US citizens by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (see 1978).

Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, who will become the NSA’s director in 1977, and who testifies before the Church Committee as director of Naval Intelligence, will later say that he worked actively to help pass FISA: “I became convinced that for almost anything the country needed to do, you could get legislation to put it on a solid foundation. There was the comfort of going out and saying in speeches, ‘We don’t target US citizens, and what we do is authorized by a court.’” [Pensito Review, 5/13/2006]

Shamrock is considered unconstitutional by many US lawmakers, and in 1976 the Justice Department investigates potential criminal offenses by the NSA surrounding Shamrock. Part of the report will be released in 1980; that report will confirm that the Shamrock data was used to further the illegal surveillance activities of US citizens as part of Minaret. [Telepolis, 7/25/2000]

After 9/11, the NSA will once again escalate its warrantless surveillance of US citizens, this time monitoring and tracking citizens’ phone calls and e-mails (see After September 11, 2001). It will also begin compiling an enormous database of citizens’ phone activities, creating a “data mine” of information on US citizens, ostensibly for anti-terrorism purposes (see October 2001).


Yes, Bush's people went around the FISC, but that's not happening now. (At least I've seen no evidence that that has happened since BHO took over - YMMV.)

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Well, as long as they're getting the rubber stamp from FISA.
New sadly, that's true
isn't the number of requests from Bush and Obama something like over 25,000 and only 5 of them were rejected?




Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous.
- - - Mark Twain “Pudd’nhead Wilson’s New Calendar,” 1897
New The thing is, I'm not too sure just what Google
is supposed to do about FISA. That's more on all you folks, you know, the citizens.
New You think we have some control of our government?
New More than you have over google
The problem is there's a lot of people who have given up asserting that control in any sort of reasonable way.

Asserting control over one's government takes work and entails risk. Most folks in NA can't have that.
New Others, myself included have determined that we ...
are getting what the majority deserve.
New And will continue to get.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
New There is no sensible oversight on the horizon.
They are already at a stage where they have absolute autonomy when they say the word terror(ist/ism). Or suggest that bad guys might happen. Or a squirrel farts outside the Pentagon. There isn't any oversight whatsoever.
Obama's latest bullshit about not being able to have 100% security and 100% liberty (or some such nonsense) is ridiculous on the face of it; they are shredding the constitution and we have no more security than we did in the 80's. When we could still travel.
We were burned on Obama. You may be willing to give him a pass; I will not. Sorry.
New have a free quiz, presidentially agnostic
http://www.roundtree...nd-security-quiz/
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New 29 years later...
http://en.wikipedia....eteen_Eighty-Four

"Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good.[1] The protagonist of the novel, Winston Smith, is a member of the Outer Party who works for the Ministry of Truth (Minitrue), which is responsible for propaganda and historical revisionism. His job is to re-write past newspaper articles so that the historical record always supports the current party line.[3] Smith is a diligent and skillful worker, but he secretly hates the Party and dreams of rebellion against Big Brother."

So, who is Smith? Just wondering?

:-)
Screamer, AKA dreck, AKA "Just a few thoughts", AKA "Putting Descartes before des horse", and so on...
New Welcome back, stranger. :-)
New Re: Welcome back, stranger. :-)
Thank you. Hope all is well. I'll try not to be a stranger (at least not in that sense of the word).
book 'em, Danno
New good to see ya man!
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Re: good to see ya man!
Sup Bill. Been since the 4'th many moons ago. Hope you are still keeping all these L-I-B-R-A-L-S (yeah, try to autocorrect that M-O-F-O - and it's trying to make moro out of M-O-F-O - freaking autocorrect making all my GD posts politically correct). AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

So how's it going?
You know,

Dan
New Hola Dan!
Hoped you'd drop in before the Great Conflagration (..oh, there'll be a fancier title--but it won't be televised.)

Did you ever score a copy of the Manfred? [Beecham: First Complete Recording]
How's it feel, realizing that the milieu you inhabit has a % Huge of folks tetched in the head?
Is the kindling temp of modrin super-paper still 451° F? (Wait.. that's another chronicle; luckily I've memorized all the good stuff, anyway..)

Drop in again, eh?
We'unses on The Barricades need moral support from all those folks what read Proust, and such..
Jejune's just no fun.

A.
New Re: Hola Dan!
Breathe, Ash, breathe. I miss you too! :-)

I am also looking forward to the GC but am hoping that it will be at least on pay per view. Who knows, maybe you or I can claim rights to pyro-in-chief and at least spark a couple of embers.

Not entirely sure I completely understand the Manfred reference (unless I'm wrapped up like a deuce, you know, the runner in the night?)

I was quite surprised and pleased that you all still have a vibrant community going. I am still wrapped in the throws of raising chilluns and watching high fallutin' football folks fabricating females here in SB…

I still have you phone number in my cell phone (from carrier to carrier from phone to phone) from the missed attempt many years back when I was in Cuppertino… It is exactly what triggered me to check z.iwethey.org in my browser. So, yes, in essence, it is all YOUR fault.
New Re: Hola Dan! (Manfred)
Don't recall the exact context that led to suggesting this unique collaboration 'twixt Lord Byron and Robert Schumann; the result of these two chimerical figures is a kind of tone poem, all metaphysical in scope.
Prolly lots in Googling same, haven't been moved to look lately if someone has transcribed the 'original' Beecham / Royal Philharmonic O. 'Best': I have that LP (M2L-245) from way before the Transistorized Society dropped on us.
(Have heard that there are some performances in execrable-mp3, that suppurating wart on the rectum of sensitive souls everywhere==Don't Bother.)

Will delve further into who Must have saved this seminal recording, perfectly executing (Byron's own angst; "Manfred" is He!) A trip to the Underworld.. to rescue the beloved Astarte--is the back-story. Many wry quips abound
(including Manfred's dismissal of a priest attempting to offer him absolution ... and like that.)
Schumann was a genius, reminiscent of Mendelssohn, and the overture to Manfred is deemed among his best work.

Anyway.. listening to this with no techno-distractions, from a proper mood (?) can, for a time replace today's fungible 'questions' with all those intimations of the er, ineffable, abetted by a decent Symph. O.
Hmmm, local academics might also have a handle on a copy.

(My music system is in disarray, as the cones have rotted (foam surrounds, yet) on my Ed Long super-speakers; unclear what medium I might copy-to, as well. Do have decent Linn-Sondek LP-12 tt and ancillary stuff.. whenever. Gotta find a really ept repairer of esoteric drivers.. from the late '70s / little idea where even to begin that search.)

Catch ya later,

I.
New This time, you're staying
>locks door<
New Knock, knock
Open the door, beotch… I'll kick it in. So it's been a long time and since we last spoke and I've heard that all men in GB are bi-sexual? Is this true? Do they also like to wear women's clothing like in Benny Hill and Monty Python? (Okay, so my sources are Keith Richards and Pete Townshend's bios). Okay, now that I've gotten that off my chest, what's been up? Has life treated you well? You're out, you're reformed, you got that money you owe me?

Etc…

Miss the communication greatly. (Sorry in advance for the little "outburst").
Former inhabitant of "New" England,

Daniel
New Re: Knock, knock
Yeah, I'm good. Got a camera. Well, another camera. Well, a proper (if you consider a DSLR "proper") camera. I now get up at stupid o'clock and walk up hills to take pictures of grass and rocks.

Do your Xmas shopping at http://bit.ly/WKar7Q
New Re: Knock, knock
Pete,
Beautiful photos - well worth the stupid o'clock wake up. Are you still racing rats in IT as well?
New Re: Knock, knock
No, I've been out of IT proper for the thick end of a decade now. These days I run liaison between our customer and the development teams, along with a dash of on-site deployment and other support activities. I find talking to people and solving (non-IT) problems much more rewarding. My job is IT-related but it broadly consists of listening to people and finding out what they need, then relaying that in technical terms to the beardy ones.

I wouldn't rule out a return to IT but it would take a large pile of cash to make it happen.
New Little danger of that any more
There are now enough "offshore development resources" (AKA low-paid dark people) that the be-suited classes are keeping the large piles of cash to themselves again.
--

Drew
New A real pleasure seeing you again.
New Re: A real pleasure seeing you again.
Likewise, sir. Hope life has been treating you well?

New It's been treating me pretty well
Though there are some flies in the ointment you might not be aware of. The big one is that my son was diagnosed with PDD-NOS (an autism spectrum disorder) about seven or eight years ago. I really fear for his future, and as I just said on another forum where folks were discussing SS, I don't have a retirement plan, I have a mentally disabled child instead.

Otherwise, I'm working, making decent coin for the town I live in, though far from spectacular, and I'm still playing my guitar, and the caliber of player I get to work with now is amazing, which I guess means that the caliber of player I am is getting up there.... I guess you could say my guitar is my retirement plan; when the IT world stops hiring us aging geeks, I'll go on the road; hopefully my finances will be in a place where all I have to do is break even to do all right.
New Re: It's been treating me pretty well
Freaking awesome!!! This is a great body of work. I need to come up and hang around with you so that some of your drive might rub off on me.

To your first reply, I think there will be a place for us old computer geeks (knowledgeable and "good" ones) if we are willing to keep learning - the technology constantly changes but my analytical skills keep getting better. There are, of course, no guarantees. And I know the feeling well about having a child with questionable future independence - my daughter, Elise, still has that Down Syndrome thing. I was hoping it would be healed by now… :-) I've found that it is best to stay positive and keep a good sense of humor and self. No one could ever challenge Elise's "quality of life" - her life has been full of laughter and joy and it would be foolish of me to think that she won't find someone to yuck it up with when I'm no longer on this side of the soil. That said, I have started an irrevocable trust and it does give me some piece of mind.

I'm here to stay. I miss you guys (and gals).
Just a few thoughts,

Dan
New AHHHH the Gold-Domed MFAC!
Good to see ya!

I've got a motorcycle now... if you are still in the that location, It'd be a nice day trip to swing by and see ya!
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
PGP key 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0 2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
New Re: AHHHH the Gold-Domed MFAC!
Greg,
Still here and imagining girlfriends like there is no tomorrow (it was, in fact, I that taught Manti everything he knows and imagines he knows)… I am very happy that you got your ride and would love to see you whenever you get the notion. I am still in the same bat place at the same bat channel.
Spit shining sneakers for fun in profit in Indiana,

Dan
     Greenwald says the NSA is getting data on every Verizon call - (Another Scott) - (42)
         Some speculation it's related to the Boston Marathon bombing - (Another Scott) - (3)
             Is it time to go back to using semaphores? - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                 cloned cell phones -NT - (boxley)
                 I like those with Hershey's Dark Chocolate. -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Just curious. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
             You need to ask? - (Another Scott)
         Dave Simon (of The Wire) weighs in. - (Another Scott) - (14)
             so willing to let your owners tighten the leash - (boxley) - (11)
                 You've got me confused with someone else. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                     sorry, I thought you were shrugging it off as no big deal -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                         There's a difference between accepting Simon's argument... - (Another Scott)
                 Gruber: Google's comments on PRISM - (Another Scott) - (7)
                     Well, as long as they're getting the rubber stamp from FISA. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                         sadly, that's true - (lincoln)
                         The thing is, I'm not too sure just what Google - (jake123) - (4)
                             You think we have some control of our government? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                 More than you have over google - (jake123) - (2)
                                     Others, myself included have determined that we ... - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                         And will continue to get. -NT - (folkert)
             There is no sensible oversight on the horizon. - (hnick) - (1)
                 have a free quiz, presidentially agnostic - (boxley)
         29 years later... - (danreck) - (20)
             Welcome back, stranger. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 Re: Welcome back, stranger. :-) - (danreck)
             good to see ya man! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                 Re: good to see ya man! - (danreck)
             Hola Dan! - (Ashton) - (2)
                 Re: Hola Dan! - (danreck) - (1)
                     Re: Hola Dan! (Manfred) - (Ashton)
             This time, you're staying - (pwhysall) - (5)
                 Knock, knock - (danreck) - (4)
                     Re: Knock, knock - (pwhysall) - (3)
                         Re: Knock, knock - (danreck) - (2)
                             Re: Knock, knock - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Little danger of that any more - (drook)
             A real pleasure seeing you again. -NT - (jake123) - (4)
                 Re: A real pleasure seeing you again. - (danreck) - (3)
                     It's been treating me pretty well - (jake123) - (2)
                         Re: It's been treating me pretty well - (jake123) - (1)
                             Re: It's been treating me pretty well - (danreck)
             AHHHH the Gold-Domed MFAC! - (folkert) - (1)
                 Re: AHHHH the Gold-Domed MFAC! - (danreck)

It's only a few more levels till we're throwing lions to the lawyers in arena combat.
190 ms