Post #353,251
1/17/12 11:34:06 AM
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Here's one opinion on capitalism
Those of you defending the concept of venture capitalism should have no problem agreeing with me on the following: I took a risk, and I deserve to be rewarded for it. That risk was a borrowed money to buy a house. I've lived in the house for several years, enjoying the benefits of ownership, including the tax break that goes with it. Now, I find the house is underwater, worth less then the mortgage value. Time to cut my losses. So I strip the house bare, selling off all the appliances, the copper plumbing, the windows, even the hardwood floors. Now that's it down to a bare shell, I file bankruptcy, only in this case it's called "foreclosure", and I walk away. According to your line of thinking, there is nothing wrong with what I've done...it's just capitalism. I took borrowed money and made an investment that didn't pay off, so I took what I could and walked away from the debt. Any problems with that?
http://business.news...ey-rises#comments
Comment #10
"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from."
-- E.L. Doctorow
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Post #353,253
1/17/12 12:22:57 PM
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A better definition
If the homeowner leaves the house in essentially the same shape as he got it, walking away with the appliances he has bought and the benefits of ownership is capitalism. If he strips the house of copper flooring and doors, windows he is committing socialism.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,254
1/17/12 12:34:22 PM
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Really?
So businesses don't sell off profitable assets before declaring bankruptcy all the time?
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Drew
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Post #353,258
1/17/12 1:08:33 PM
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copper flooring and windows are not profitable assets
The sale price of those items used wouldnt compensate me for the time it took to remove them.
Its a bad analogy for a bustout. A bustout is where I buy a stocked grocery store on credit. Get as many providers as I can get to give me net 60 then sell it to the walls and walk away. Its a one sided transaction with no good faith. Does it happen all of the time, sure. Does it provide a net gain to the economy probably not and impedes the basis of capitalism, which is trade.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,261
1/17/12 1:24:48 PM
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I think that's the point
The comment wasn't suggesting that stripping a house and foreclosing was good for the economy, or a good and fair way to do business. The whole point was to illustrate that that's exactly what businesses do all the time. If it's bad for an individual to do it, why is it a sound business strategy when a corporation does it?
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Drew
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Post #353,262
1/17/12 1:28:18 PM
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"Corporations are people, my friend." Oh, wait... ;-)
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Post #353,264
1/17/12 1:31:03 PM
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Heard on The Daily Show
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
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Drew
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Post #353,266
1/17/12 1:48:07 PM
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believe oh Son and repent
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,274
1/17/12 4:13:08 PM
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That was a suicide
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Drew
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Post #353,270
1/17/12 3:14:57 PM
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Read on bumper sticker.
Corporations are created in law.
People are created in the sack.
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Post #353,271
1/17/12 3:36:12 PM
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OT thought of a new bumber sticker today
outline of a womb with "property of US Government" stamped across it
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,265
1/17/12 1:43:45 PM
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why is it a sound business strategy?
People drink and drive do drugs and have unprotected sex all of the time, is that a sound people strategy?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,275
1/17/12 4:13:46 PM
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Umm ... it's not. Did you miss where that was the point?
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Drew
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Post #353,276
1/17/12 4:48:25 PM
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You made the point
why is it a sound business strategy when a corporation does it? I was addressing that point, it isnt
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,277
1/17/12 4:51:38 PM
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Look at the incentives for management. Working as designed.
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Post #353,278
1/17/12 5:00:30 PM
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Just curious
what incentives?
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,282
1/17/12 5:49:21 PM
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The ones that exist and reward the behavior. HTH.
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Post #353,289
1/18/12 6:37:43 AM
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Re: The ones that exist and reward the behavior. HTH.
I see, we don't know what they are..but they exist.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,290
1/18/12 7:38:00 AM
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Don't play coy. It's unbecoming.
Google "Chainsaw Al".
Google "Bain Capital Worldwide Grinding Systems".
Google "Paul Bilzerian Singer".
That should get you started.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,496
1/23/12 10:26:56 AM
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Krgthulu has more linkies this morning.
Summers and Shleifer argued back in 1988 that buyouts are often aimed at Âvalue redistribution rather than Âvalue creationÂ; specifically, a lot of the gains to the buyout specialists come from breaking implicit contracts with Âworkers, suppliers, and other corporate stakeholders.Â
They make one especially keen point: if it were really about adding efficiency, why do the same people lead takeovers in many industries, instead of people with specific expertise in each industry doing the job? Their answer is that these specialists are specialists in deal-breaking, not value creation. - http://krugman.blogs.../breach-of-trust/
Whocouldaknowd?
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,525
1/23/12 11:13:21 PM
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It just keeps getting better. Charlie Pierce today.
http://www.esquire.c...anuary-23-6643296
[...]
Even in brief, the story is appalling. PG&E was subject to a couple of independent audits out in California because elements of the state regulatory apparatus out there suspected that the company was largely run by avaricious weasels. The audits proved that this initial speculative evaluation was dreadfully unfair to weasels. It turns out that executives of PG&E "diverted" (nice word, that) $100 million earmarked for gas safety and for operational expenses. This money, it should be noted, was squeezed out of PG&E's customers, and at a time when PG&E was soaking its customers for $430 million more than it was authorized to collect, according the the state's utility regulators. And to where exactly, you may wonder, pray tell, was all this extra money diverted? Take it away, San Francisco Chronicle:
"...the company spent $56 million annually on an incentive plan for executives and 'non-employee directors,' including stock awards, performance shares and deferred compensation. 'A cursory review reveals that a significant portion, in the millions, has been awarded to the CEO,' the commission staff report said in a reference to former PG&E head Peter Darbee, who retired last year."
Of course, it did.
And all that happened was that, in 2010, a PG&E pipeline in San Bruno blew up, killing eight people and demolishing 38 homes.
Of course, it did.
And why did the pipeline explode?
"An independent audit and a staff report issued by the California Public Utilities Commission depicted a poorly led company well-heeled in its gas operations and more concerned with profit than safety. The documents link a deficient PG&E safety culture  with its 'focus on financial performance.'"
Of course, it was.
This is what was tolerated, then encouraged, and finally celebrated within our corporate universe, within our politics, and, ultimately, within our national culture at large. This is what is taught in our business schools. This is how success has come to measured in the business of our country. This is the place where government cannot have a role because it would discourage  or, worse, breed "uncertainty"  among our job-creators. This is every inch of the ground on which the entire Republican party  and too much of the Democratic party  has come to stand.
[...]
(Before you reply, please note he's not saying "both sides are the same". Thank you.)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #353,538
1/24/12 9:42:42 AM
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Cobb Energy GA same
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,279
1/17/12 5:14:36 PM
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[siiiiiiigggghhhhh]
From the original:
I file bankruptcy, only in this case it's called "foreclosure", and I walk away. According to your line of thinking, there is nothing wrong with what I've done...it's just capitalism.
The quote we're discussing compares foreclosure to bankruptcy, and suggests that one is accepted as a standard part of doing business while the other is not. The quote we're discussing asks why they're seen to be different.
Disagree with the premise if you'd like, but at least stop pretending it's my opinion, okay?
And just to be explicit, I support the statement of the counterfactual. By which I mean that I also believe bankruptcy is seen by the moneyed class as a normal part of business, while foreclosure is seen as a moral failing. So I also think that bankruptcy should not be seen as a normal part of doing business.
--
Drew
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Post #353,280
1/17/12 5:20:18 PM
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Re: [siiiiiiigggghhhhh]
I wouldn't agree that the "monied" class accepts bankruptcy as a normal part of doing business.
Bankruptcy = Failure
And failure is not a word "they" like to use.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Post #353,284
1/17/12 6:34:35 PM
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Re: [siiiiiiigggghhhhh]
Bankruptcy is a Money saving process.
My Step Dad does it everytime he need a write-off and buys a failing small business. Runs it into the ground for all its worth and then does bankruptcy.
It saves him about $500K/year in taxes in good years and does not impact his monthly income one bit.
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Post #353,294
1/18/12 9:08:17 AM
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Failure yes, but one that provides a profit.
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Post #353,285
1/17/12 7:26:12 PM
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you appeared to be concentrated on a different point
stripping the house as opposed to just walking away. Foreclosure when you are underwater is no moral failure anymore than personal or business bankruptcy. I am the only person in my side of the family who hasnt done either. I am underwater about 20k at the moment with 50k equity gone. If rent was about 3/4 or less than my mortgage payment I would have tossed the keys immediately without qualm. That is a business decision, not a moral one.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,255
1/17/12 12:41:38 PM
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Re: A better definition
Why? The michael milkens and others were famous for stripping every single assets. Ol mike was convicted of securities fraud...claiming the house was new...not for stripping it bare.
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Post #353,259
1/17/12 1:09:06 PM
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Which is why he was convicted, yes?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Post #353,287
1/17/12 9:41:13 PM
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Correct, for misrepresentation...
not for stripping the house bare.
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