it isnt, and they would lose you as a customer to a telco
or another IP and they understand that.
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Why would the other be any better?
Let's see, if I want Netflix to work I need to use Time Warner. If I want YouTube, I need Comcast. If I want Hulu I'll have to get DishNetwork.
Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. --
Drew |
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why do you think that is the plan?
oh, moveon and codepink have told you that. Read wnd and get some balance wouldja?
or read what they are actually up to http://www.ncta.com/...inary.aspx?id=918 now I am all for net neutrality. Based on the fact that I cant impede any net traffic, I turn down all of my edge services cut my storage one 3rd and publish a policy that we recycle space every 3 days so be sure to pick up your neutral messages in a timely manner |
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NAF's comments.
http://www.newameric...eply_Comments.pdf (48 page .PDF):
p.4 No proposals for legislation or putative compromises on open Internet principles can answer questions about the proper interpretation of the statute, the correct classification of broadband Internet connectivity, or the CommissionÂs ultimate authority to enforce any rules related to broadband communications. Clarifying and re-establishing Commission authority over the transmission and access components of broadband Internet connectivity offerings is necessary for more than preserving the open Internet. Classifying broadband Internet connectivity service as a telecommunications service also is the best way for the Commission to achieve other National Broadband Plan goals, implement universal service fund (ÂUSFÂ) reform, protect online privacy, enhance broadband-based public safety initiatives, promote broadband access for disabled users, and develop rules for transparency and truth-in-billing measures that protect broadband users. p.17-18: Cox was one of the network operators in the initial round of comments continuing to press the idea that broadband Internet connectivity is somehow inseparable or inextricably intertwined with operator-provided information services delivered over this broadband transmission platform.52 The cable operator indicated that it does not sell its broadband Internet connectivity service to customers separately, and that it instead bundles this capacity together with information services that it requires its customers to buy as a package.53 However, as the Public Interest Commenters explained in their initial comments, the transmission service that broadband Internet connectivity represents is not inextricably intertwined with the information services that such network operators also may make available to customers.54 Therefore, Âthe information services that broadband Internet connectivity service providers may bundle together with their transmission service are not legally, technically, commercially, or practicably inseparable from the underlying telecommunications service.Â55 In fact, as Public Interest Commenters also explained, the regulatory classification and statutory framework for services that providers offer to customers cannot be dependent on the manner in which those services are bundled together for marketing purposes.56 Just as the Commission is not required to define an entire Âtriple-play bundle (combining voice, video, and data offerings) as one type of service within the regulatory frameworks of the Act, it does not need to define broadband Internet connectivity as an Âinformation service simply because providers may choose also to offer email and news gathering services. That is true even if a provider, such as Cox or another broadband network operator, purports to require that its customers purchase the whole bundle of services. FWIW. Cheers, Scott. |
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correct
so unplug you cable modem and check your email. Let me know how it works out for you and if you still think broadband and information services can be de-linked like the so called commentators.
thanx, bill |
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I get my email from my web host, not my ISP
Information services that are transmitted over the internet require that I have an internet connection. They don't require that I have a particular internet connection. Cox is arguing that they do.
I know you work in email, and email represents a large portion of total internet traffic. (Less by the day, with the advent of streaming video.) But how much of that email is ISP email? In a totally unscientific survey, I've got over 8,400 names on my mailing lists. Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail account for more than 4,900 of them. So your earlier "threat" to delete mail after three days? Would affect less than half my readers. If anyone actually tried it, a whole lot more people would decouple their email addresses from their ISPs. And once that lock-in is gone, what's to keep them from switching to a new provider? That's the only reason ISPs provide email any more. --
Drew |
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Ditto. We've never checked our e-mail on our Cox account.
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whoosh, point=missed
disconnect your cable modem, then try to get your google yahoo or aol mail. Still think they are decoupled? Hardly. Without a transport layer 1-3 you cant get layers 4-7 very successfully. You can get the first 3 layers from telcos cable companies wifimax as well as SAT mixed with a pots and 56k modem.
Net neutrality means you cant get thru to 911 via your voip phone because the neighbor is downloading GBs of porn and the QOS for voip cant be used by law. Your loss. |
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Is that what it means? Really?
Cox is saying that their broadband and their email are a single product. Can't have just broadband, because they don't sell it that way.
Do you agree with that position? Is it true that it's not possible to offer broadband service that doesn't do anything except connect to the internet at a given rate? And what about the other example? What if Time Warner decides to block all traffic from NetFlix. And Comcast decides to block everything from Hulu. (For "block" you can assume I mean, "slow it down so much the service is unusable".) Should that be allowed? Do you think market forces alone are sufficient to prevent it? (Hint: It's already happened.) If it is a problem, what should be done about it? As for 911 service, is it impossible that there could be an exception made? Or might it be time to recognize that a whole lot of people aren't using the POTS any more, and we should reexamine how 911 is accomplished, rather than just pass laws protecting the POTS? --
Drew |
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Specious argument.
Without electricity your cable modem won't work, therefore the power company should have a say on traffic through the modem?
It doesn't work that way. Net neutrality means that the pipe owners can't discriminate against those companies that don't pay for preferential treatment. http://www.startribu...iD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ Cheers, Scott. |
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so downloading porn == telephone service. okay
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QOS is NOT the issue here.
QOS has been defined for a long time and it is understood and VOIP has to be guaranteed and honored if it Sets the QOS flag.
TOR, Bit-torrent and other things don't set the QOS flag. You are comparing service flags vs content. Not entirely correct at all. |
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bullshit greg, you know better
content is just thst. Everyone else is claiming all services are equal, that is their argument. If it isnt then you have government dictating what service is worth a higher QOS instead of the network operators. You sure that is where you want to go?
Think pinkon and moveorg are declared protected content as opposed to webmd and mikevitale.com. Thats what they envision for the airwaves why wouldnt they extend it to the net. By the way wikileaks would be relagated to a maybe status Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Oh, cool, code words...
Classifying broadband Internet connectivity service as a telecommunications service also is the best way for the Commission to achieve other National Broadband Plan goals, implement universal service fund (ÂUSFÂ) reform, protect online privacy, enhance broadband-based public safety initiatives, promote broadband access for disabled users, and develop rules for transparency and truth-in-billing measures that protect broadband users. Classify it as telecom so you can TAX it effectively. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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It *is* telecom
It's only a historical accident that anyone ever thought it wasn't. For the past 15 years, whenever someone said, "There's no law that covers that on the internet," they were wrong.
Saying that existing laws can't be applied to the intenet is like saying all you have to do is add the words "on the internet" to a longstanding business process and you can get a patent. "We auction stuff off ... on the internet! Gimme a patent, bitches." --
Drew |
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Doesn't mean...
it has to be classified the same way as your telephone. Doing that just lets them tax it by adding USF to it.
It was only a matter of time. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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You don't like the USF. Now tell me why it's not a telecom.
--
Drew |
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doesnt use the AIN so its not a telecom, no a-links needed
your anology is like having amtrack administer the highway system as well as the FAA. Why not, its all transportation.
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Verizon says you're wrong
No, actually the Telecommunications Act of 1996 says you're wrong. I just got the link from Verizon -- http://www22.verizon...tions_act_of_1996
Telecommunications Act of 1996 http://www22.verizon...nications_service Telecommunications Service http://www22.verizon...elecommunications Telecommunications How does an ISP not fit that definition? --
Drew |
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federal court said you are wrong, they should know
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Have you read Brand X?
The Comcast ruling was based on Brand X -- http://www.law.corne...ml/04-277.ZS.html
You can read the whole thing, but here are the key points (as relates to the question of "is cable modem service telecommunications?"). In the Declaratory Ruling under review, the [Federal Communications] Commission classified broadband cable modem service as an "information service" but not a "telecommunications service" under the 1996 Act, so that it is not subject to mandatory Title II common-carrier regulation. The key point here is that the ruling in Brand X was not whether cable modem service qualifies as "telecommunications service" or "information service", but whether the Circuit Court was allowed to overrule the finding of the FCC on an ambiguously worded statute. So what did the Circuit Court find? Because Portland held only that the best reading of §153(46) was that cable modem service was "telecommunications service," not that this was the only permissible reading or that the Communications Act unambiguously required it, the Ninth Circuit erred in refusing to apply Chevron. Pp. 10Â14. So the Ninth Circuit agreed with me, that cable modem is "telecommunications service". The Supreme Court didn't rule on that issue, merely saying that the issue was ambiguous and therefore within the purview of the FCC to define. As to whether the language was ambiguous -- ie: is it reasonable to conclude that cable modem is not "telecommunications service": Seen from the consumer's point of view, the Commission concluded, the cable wire is used to access the World Wide Web, newsgroups, etc., rather than "transparently" to transmit and receive ordinary-language messages without computer processing or storage of the message. This view depends on defining "the consumer" as a single, monolithic block of users, none of whom understand the technology at issue. On this point I think the Supreme Court simply got it wrong, allowing the least technologically-aware segment of the population stand in as a proxy for the whole. Finally: The traditional reason for its Computer II common-carrier treatment of facilities-based carriers was that the telephone network was the primary, if not the exclusive, means through which information service providers could gain access to their customers. The Commission applied the same treatment to DSL service based on that history, rather than on an analysis of contemporaneous market conditions. The Commission's Declaratory Ruling, by contrast, concluded that changed market conditions warrant different treatment of cable modem service. Unlike at the time of the DSL order, substitute forms of Internet transmission exist today, including wireline, cable, terrestrial wireless, and satellite. The Commission therefore concluded that broadband services should exist in a minimal regulatory environment that promotes investment and innovation in a competitive market. Part of the reasoning for the change has nothing to do with what the service is, and instead depends on whether there is a competitive marketplace, and what greater need is served. So as I said: A historical accident. Note that this ruling only applies to cable internet service. DSL is still regulated under the common carrier provisions. So: 1. The Circuit Court agreed with me that broadband internet service -- excuse me, cable internet service -- is a "telecommunications service". 2. The Supreme Court said that whether that was true or not, the regulations were sufficiently ambiguous that the Circuit Court should have allowed the Commission's interpretation to stand. 2a. They found that the regulation was ambiguous by assuming that end-users were not well educated about the offerings. 3. The court allowed a different interpretation of DSL broadband vs. cable broadband based not on the offering and how it was perceived by the end-user, but on market conditions and issues of competition. So the court didn't say I'm wrong. And in fact, now that I've read the decisions behind this story, I realize your case is even weaker than I thought. Because the decision hinged on the fact that the FCC has jurisdiction to determine whether cable internet providers should be considered common carriers. So it is entirely within the rights of the FCC to impose Net Neutrality. The existing case law supports their jurisdiction to do so. --
Drew |
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hafta take this offline if you are really interested
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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I didn't say it wasn't telecom
I said >they< want to reclassify it so it fits in with the USF so they can TAX it just like the phone. So you will see new excise, USF and other charges added.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Sure, it's all about TAXes. As always. Sure... :-/
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Is that NOT what you think
that earlier quote about restructuring the USF was about? If so, please enlighten us with what YOU think it means?
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Let's see.
What's the underlying context of this discussion? The National Broadband Plan - http://www.broadband...action-items.html
Goal No. 1: At least 100 million U.S. homes should have affordable access to actual download speeds of at least 100 megabits per second and actual upload speeds of at least 50 megabits per second. What's the USF? http://www.usac.org/about/usac/ The Universal Service Administrative Company (USAC) is an independent, not-for-profit corporation designated as the administrator of the federal Universal Service Fund by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). USAC administers Universal Service Fund (USF) programs for high cost companies serving rural areas, low-income consumers, rural health care providers, and schools and libraries. The Universal Service Fund helps provide communities across the country with affordable telecommunications services. What's USF reform? http://en.wikipedia....al_Service_reform Current debate over the Universal Service Fund currently involves the scope of the funding, which technology types and companies should fund the program, which groups should be eligible for benefits, and the need to clean up waste and fraud in the program. Changes in technology and the marketplace have led to the need for reform of USF. What does it mean? Well, since the FCC is pushing a mandate to expand broadband across the country to as much of the population as possible, it seems to me that the USF fits into that. Reform of the USF fits into that. It's not about TAXes. Its about expanding service and making sure that service is open. HTH. Cheers, Scott. |
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Re: Let's see.
i would be satisfied that every household have reasonable access to food and water, we aint there yet. Socialist much?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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...
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So you're in favour of letting people starve to death?
Because not to do so would be "socialist". (If that's not how to read what you wrote, then what is?) You do realise, I hope, that the opposite of "socialist", in that case, seems to be "utter arsehole".
But the Other Scott of course said all that so much more elegantly than I... Because all the above is exactly what his "..." meant, I am willing to wager. And to think I accused poor *BeeP* of being a Rush-head...! |
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point=missed
I am concerned that people have access to adequate food and water, in america some people do go to bed hungry (if they have a bed) Scott is concerned that these hungry people get broadband.
Unca Joe Steele was a socialist, he loved them kulaks Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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Considering that you are {unnaturally!} oft better-informed
about the hysterical soap opera which Murican 'politics' always is:
I doubt that you are surprised that our 'Social Security' ... ie. the very Idea that there should Be Such a Thing -- is currently under attack by various reactionary groupings (merely for having the concept 'social' anywhere around it.) And such fulminations are (see Russ Feingold matters) successfully beating-out re-electable long-time non-lunatic seat holders, in preparation for the verbal diarrhea to accompany {{shudder}} the little dances to be held in November. Now I know what you're thinking: IF'n 'They' replace living-breathing humans with such pod-people droids, aren't they Shooting-in-gonads -- the Party (they have devoured into irrelevance) -- to the benefit of the Opposition? Yeah, one might think so, but this be Murica 2010. (Let the shuddering commence early, so those muscles will be strong enough to bear the November Shudders in all sentient onlookers.) Carrion PS -- welcome back from the Void! I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers! -- via RC |
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Let's see, part B
The Telecommunications Act of 1996 specifically states that "advanced services" should be accessible to all Americans The reasoning in Brand X explicitly held that cable internet was an "information service" and not a "telecommunications service" because "advanced services" == "information services". So if cable is an "advanced service", that's exactly what the USF is supposed to be providing. --
Drew |
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So who will pay
to run cable to the guy 100 miles up in the Rockies?
And the USF used to be only about telephone. scope and tax creep. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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you already did, part of the stimulus package
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
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But I also pay
every month on my land line bill. Paid also when I had the second line on VOIP.
Nothing to do with stimulus. Now they want to hit me again, apparently, every month on my internet bill. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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Poor beepster ... could your taxes be so onerous
because your income is so high?
Shed some of that pork and you too can be (almost) Tax-free. (Hey.. works for me.) :-0 I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers! -- via RC |
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bwah ha ha
thats funny
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
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