Hey, whattaya mean "web company"

As if it is different in non-web companies?

There is a historical mix of old stuff that people have to run, and there is the future.

The tech future will be split. Corp world (servers) will go from a 80% (pulling numbers out of my ass) MS based to < 50%, with Linux simply growing. Desktop will be MS for a LOOOONNNGGGG time. But the lock MS had in the backroom 10 years ago is GONE, and it is never coming back.

Non big corp (really, everything else, ma/pop, isp, small business, medium business, etc) does everything it can to minimize the cost of an entry point for any tech, so the only time MS goes in is when someone SELLS it in. So unless there is a vertical market app that requires it, the small vendors want to maximize their profit, which means open source. Linux rules this world already (email, file, print, web, database, application, etc).

I think the best mix of tech that Lincoln can learn is Web application front end access from windows desktop browser, combined with a decent database setup under Linux such as PostGres. If the language is PHP, then he can use the PHPEd development environment, which means a pretty windows interface combined with a debugger that runs on the back-end Linux box.

So, this gives him:

An environment to actually accomplish stuff that can be cheaply deployed.
Experience with database, apache, and PHP server setup and admin on Linux.
Experience with PHPEd, a decent development environment for a coder.
Ability to program applications that any windows desktop user (client maybe?) can run immediately.

It means he can walk into an interview and demo what he's capable of.
It means he can sell to small business cheaply.

Well?

Let's assume you present well.
Let's assume you wow them.

And then they hire you.

And in 2 week your boss tells you to work on some legacy code.
And you tell him to f'off because they did that in your last job and kept you pigeonholed for years.

And even if you don't overtly respond, you will seethe. You are a seether. So you will be shitty to work with.

I gave you a shot years ago. I seem to recall you interviewed over the phone with me and couple of other people. Total skill mismatch, ie: you didn't offer us anything we could use, and your attitude when this started to become clear was hostile.

You need to keep in mind a hiring manager might have 1/2 a dozen positions in the pipeline, requiring all different kinds of skills. You are interviewing for something, it may be a mismatch, but a position that opens up down the line might be a good match. That 1st interview puts you at the TOP of the list for the next interview if you behave, are nice about it, and quickly accept that you are mismatch for the current one. If you try to fight it, they'll shitcan your resume for all positions since you are difficult to work with.

I had to apologize to my coworkers for your behavior. So stop telling people you are much better during interviews. You aren't. This was a phone screen run by a couple of people who were already favorable to you and it went bad fast.

Post #331,648 by crazy 8/22/10 3:59:32 AM Reply	Hey, whattaya mean "web company" As if it is different in non-web companies? There is a historical mix of old stuff that people have to run, and there is the future. The tech future will be split. Corp world (servers) will go from a 80% (pulling numbers out of my ass) MS based to < 50%, with Linux simply growing. Desktop will be MS for a LOOOONNNGGGG time. But the lock MS had in the backroom 10 years ago is GONE, and it is never coming back. Non big corp (really, everything else, ma/pop, isp, small business, medium business, etc) does everything it can to minimize the cost of an entry point for any tech, so the only time MS goes in is when someone SELLS it in. So unless there is a vertical market app that requires it, the small vendors want to maximize their profit, which means open source. Linux rules this world already (email, file, print, web, database, application, etc). I think the best mix of tech that Lincoln can learn is Web application front end access from windows desktop browser, combined with a decent database setup under Linux such as PostGres. If the language is PHP, then he can use the PHPEd development environment, which means a pretty windows interface combined with a debugger that runs on the back-end Linux box. So, this gives him: An environment to actually accomplish stuff that can be cheaply deployed. Experience with database, apache, and PHP server setup and admin on Linux. Experience with PHPEd, a decent development environment for a coder. Ability to program applications that any windows desktop user (client maybe?) can run immediately. It means he can walk into an interview and demo what he's capable of. It means he can sell to small business cheaply. Well?
Post #331,661 by malraux 8/22/10 11:49:25 AM Reply	Re: Hey, whattaya mean "web company" Speaking to the other end of the market, enterprise (Oracle, Java, some C++) software is being developed first and foremost for Linux - Tier 1. Solaris Sparc and Windows tier 2. Weird crap like Solaris X86 and such are Tier 3. Completely agree on the browser, excepting that retail is down to 75% IE. Corporate is still far and away IE. Here's the elephant in the room, though: Lincoln, hiring managers can smell that attitude of yours miles away. Knowing how antagonistic you get here to people trying to help, and your overwhelming negativity, I wouldn't hire you even if you had exactly what I needed. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #331,662 by folkert 8/22/10 11:54:18 AM Reply	Re: Attitude... That is exactly the same message I've told him time and time again. That attitude just oozes all over the place when its like his is.
Post #331,665 by SpiceWare 8/22/10 12:40:05 PM Reply	Re: Attitude... that's why I didn't forward an opportunity earlier this year, I just couldn't bring myself to subject former coworkers(some of whom I still hang out with) to him.
Post #331,672 by folkert 8/22/10 3:10:42 PM Reply	OUCH. That hurts Darrell. And the mere fact you said it openly here is another thing he needs to see. Its just to bad, he is so negative. Its the single biggest thing holding him where he is... unemployed.
Post #331,776 by lincoln 8/24/10 8:33:54 PM Reply	Re: OUCH. Its the single biggest thing holding him where he is. Wrong. The biggest thing keeping me unemployed for the moment is my last employer had me on 10 year old outdated technology for the past 2 years. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #331,780 by folkert 8/24/10 9:04:50 PM Reply	Victim with a grudge. That explains you to a tee. I see it, many others see it here. The attitude pervades your entire mannerisms. You emanate negativity, even if you don't think you do. As Scott also comments, you are alienating a large contingent of people that could help you, but choose not to because of your combative techniques. You want proof, look at Darell's post. FYI, my place of work needed a web developer about 3 months ago as we had a surprising departure. We work remotely for everything. I refused to offer you a chance to get the job. Also an FYI, we have another opening expanding... into new areas we typically don't like to go interfacing with .NET and other things like PHP and Ruby. You aren't getting a chance, even if you do find and present a resume and cover letter, your name is on the exclusion list. That is 3 jobs JUST in this thread, imagine how many you've missed else where in this group and abroad. I'm sorry you are stuck, only you can change that.
Post #331,855 by lincoln 8/25/10 9:15:46 PM Reply	your former employer's HR dept. called me in June and the discussion ended fairly quickly when they were only offering what the average kid fresh out of college with no experience is getting (according to online salary surveys). "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #331,883 by pwhysall 8/26/10 4:12:35 AM Reply	Was that more or less than you're getting now? Just sayin'.
Post #331,893 by beepster 8/26/10 9:55:04 AM Reply	and is first offer ever final? answer, no. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
Post #331,920 by lincoln 8/26/10 9:40:18 PM Reply	There is no way that they would have begun to come up near where I used to make considering their starting point. And I had no desire to go that low, after having read enough stories on financial Internet sites that say once you cut your salary below a certain percentage, you WILL NEVER catch up to where you were previously. I'll cut my salary requirements when my property taxes stop going up the maximum allowed every year (not to mention utilities, food, college tuition, etc). "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #331,930 by boxley 8/27/10 11:03:49 AM Reply	you going to college? if you are paying for someone else to go tell them to get a job and help out. Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
Post #332,201 by lincoln 9/2/10 8:40:43 PM Reply	she does have a job but teenagers working stereotypical teenager jobs can't earn enough to save anything near what tuition, let alone, books, lab fees, room & board, etc., cost. She's paying what she can, we're paying what we can, she's got the scholarships, and the rest is loans. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #332,215 by boxley 9/3/10 10:45:48 AM Reply	that works Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
Post #331,933 by beepster 8/27/10 12:31:54 PM Reply	You need to re-evaluate. You may never make as much as you used to. full stop. Why? you were invested in a skill that is no longer in demand. To the new company, you may even be worse than a new hire because you are coming with baggage. Obvious baggage. The new reality is, get in, get trained and jump ship to better pay. You need someone to take a chance on you, and their not going to pay a 15yr experience wage to do that. Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
Post #331,934 by Another Scott 8/27/10 12:42:21 PM Reply	Not only that. Lots of companies promote from within if at all possible. The most important thing is to get inside. There's nothing wrong with, e.g., starting in the mailroom if there's room to grow. Get inside, make a good impression, and doors can open for advancement. In lincoln's case, I think that getting a permanent job at even an entry level with an opportunity to move up is a lot better than waiting for a near-perfect fit while time marches on... Even if that entry level turns out to be a dead end, it doesn't have to be a mistake. It is employment to put on a resume (as opposed to a hole) and another point for networking. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #331,940 by folkert 8/27/10 2:48:07 PM Reply	More good advice that will... Fall on Deaf Ears.
Post #332,203 by lincoln 9/2/10 8:48:18 PM Reply	Re: More good advice that will... You presume way too much. Read my current posts from tonight. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #332,202 by lincoln 9/2/10 8:46:51 PM Reply	Already have Started this week working for a national bank. One level behind in .NET, no C#, web pages in ASP.Net and HTML, SQL Server 2005 databases. Pay well below what I made in the home town, but almost reaches what I had in the job in oil town. Commute is worse, but that's the way it goes. So far, I and the other 5 consultants sitting in the aisle spent the first three days sitting around waiting for logins and access rights to be granted. Today we started installing software and internal applications because the techies don't image machines. Funny thing is that I've been called by 4 recruiters this week - it's like they suddenly learned about my new position through karma, or something or other ... "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #332,206 by folkert 9/2/10 9:31:31 PM Reply	Advice. Don't blow it. I wish you good luck.
Post #332,216 by boxley 9/3/10 10:47:53 AM Reply	work is work, good luck Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
Post #332,218 by malraux 9/3/10 11:11:28 AM Reply	Good luck, Brian Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #332,219 by malraux 9/3/10 11:11:28 AM Reply	Good luck, Brian Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #332,222 by hnick 9/3/10 12:03:43 PM Reply	Best of luck. Keep the attitude under your hat and a smile on your face when things get messy. Sometimes you just have to take the bull by the tail and face the situation...
Post #332,226 by beepster 9/3/10 1:00:09 PM Reply	Good deal! Make the most of it. Don't ignore the headhunters either :-) Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
Post #332,257 by Another Scott 9/4/10 3:09:20 PM Reply	Excellent news. Good luck!
Post #332,016 by pwhysall 8/29/10 4:40:50 AM Reply	I don't get it. You're unemployed now, right? Now, I can understand someone with a trade (i.e. a programmer) not particularly wanting to take shelf-stacking or burger-flipping work, but to be inflexible on salary? In this financial and economic climate? That's a recipe for being unemployed for a long time. FWIW, I'd flip burgers rather than do nothing. The thing you need to realise - and that which you seem singularly impervious to - is that all the feedback you're getting here, hurtful and unpleasant as it may be, is the kind of advice that is absolutely priceless because anyone who's got any kind of contractual arrangement with you, be it colleague or employer, won't give it for fear of all sorts of litigatishit. So man the fuck up, take responsibility for your situation, and start working on positive things that will move you forward.
Post #332,204 by lincoln 9/2/10 8:49:34 PM Reply	Post #35342 "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #332,208 by pwhysall 9/3/10 12:52:48 AM Reply	Best of luck with it!
Post #331,775 by lincoln 8/24/10 8:31:02 PM Reply	Do you really think that I'm exactly the same way in an interview as I am here? Seriously, are you that delusional? "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #331,777 by malraux 8/24/10 8:43:00 PM Reply	Attitude flows through. You may not think it does, but it does. The negativity, the combativeness, these will be apparent. It is very rare that I hire someone who turns out to be completely different than they appeared in an interview. Attitude is pervasiveness, and word choice, anecdotes you tell, how you present in body language... these will all show. Additionally, there is a whole group of highly connected IT people here that you are managing to alienate on a daily basis. "Delusional". Case in point. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #331,793 by crazy 8/25/10 6:46:27 AM 8/25/10 6:53:15 AM Reply	Let's assume you aren't Let's assume you present well. Let's assume you wow them. And then they hire you. And in 2 week your boss tells you to work on some legacy code. And you tell him to f'off because they did that in your last job and kept you pigeonholed for years. And even if you don't overtly respond, you will seethe. You are a seether. So you will be shitty to work with. I gave you a shot years ago. I seem to recall you interviewed over the phone with me and couple of other people. Total skill mismatch, ie: you didn't offer us anything we could use, and your attitude when this started to become clear was hostile. You need to keep in mind a hiring manager might have 1/2 a dozen positions in the pipeline, requiring all different kinds of skills. You are interviewing for something, it may be a mismatch, but a position that opens up down the line might be a good match. That 1st interview puts you at the TOP of the list for the next interview if you behave, are nice about it, and quickly accept that you are mismatch for the current one. If you try to fight it, they'll shitcan your resume for all positions since you are difficult to work with. I had to apologize to my coworkers for your behavior. So stop telling people you are much better during interviews. You aren't. This was a phone screen run by a couple of people who were already favorable to you and it went bad fast. Edited by crazy Aug. 25, 2010, 06:48:11 AM EDT Edited by crazy Aug. 25, 2010, 06:53:15 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #331,794 by malraux 8/25/10 7:15:45 AM Reply	^------- This. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #331,854 by lincoln 8/25/10 9:13:14 PM Reply	shoot me an email with the specifics I'd like to check my notes from back then. "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow
Post #331,868 by folkert 8/25/10 10:26:24 PM Reply	Its doesn;t matter your opinion or view of the subject. What matters is what the Employer sees. I very sorry you can't get that through your head. At least 4 jobs in this thread alone.

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