Post #32,920
3/20/02 6:46:32 PM
3/20/02 9:09:38 PM
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Re: AIX Odd ????
If AIX was odd it was because IBM added in robust features that made it superior to what was common at the time.
Just to paint a background - was involved with AIX 1, 2 ,3 & 4 & on PS/2, RT & RS/6000.
AIX on the RT was a brilliant development but a group of brainless idiots in the wider world, who didn't understand OSes & virtual machines cried tears of anguish about how AIX 2 wasn't pure Unix like their beloved Sys 5 Unix . So IBM bent to market 'demand' & re-wrote AIX 3 for the RS/6000, but still tried to add in the scaling & robustness features Unix lacked.
The AIX/2 RT VRM allowed IBM to run AIX + BSD Unix + PICK *all at the same time*. IBM had had experience with Unix on the 360 & had built the first & arguably *most scalable* mainframe Unix in the late 1970s whilst working with Bell Labs at Piscataway & Murray Hill. That Unix got clobbered by IBM marketing who feared it would dent their MVS/370 strategy. In 1980 (or 1981)Bell Labs wanted to order several mainframes based on TSS/UNIX. IBM marketing baulked & Bell went to Digital who obliged. The IBM mainframe TSS/Unix held the record for scale & performance well into the 1980s.
Bell Labs ran the copy that they had, for years - it was a VM based implementation runing on a TSS/VM IBM had developed for MIT projects. It was based on TSS/360 and ran on 360/67 which was a mod 65 with some virtual memory features. TSS was modified significantly for the UNIX implementation. This was in the 1979/80 timeframe. The working system was delivered to Bell Labs (Murray Hill?) in 1980.
[link|http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/slide07.jpg|IBM System 360/67 - the box that ran the first serious UNIX)]
IBM's later crime (late 1980s/ early 1990s in Austin Texas) with Unix was that it tried to improve it with features like VM support, JFS, expandable FS etc: etc: - history has shown what happens when public emotion wins out against common sense - Unix got fragmented & by-passed by other products. AIX & HP-UX & Solaris are solid products today but could have been vastly better had their been a common purpose in the Unix community. UI & OSF really broke Unix in two with great assistance from AT&T.
DSM
Edited by dmarker2
March 20, 2002, 06:51:47 PM EST
Edited by dmarker2
March 20, 2002, 09:06:33 PM EST
Re: AIX Odd ????
If AIX was odd it was because IBM added in robust features that made it superior to what was common at the time.
Just to paint a background - was involved with AIX 1, 2 ,3 & 4 & on PS/2, RT & RS/6000.
AIX on the RT was a brilliant development but a group of brainless idiots in the wider world, who didn't understand OSes & virtual machines cried tears of anguish about how AIX 2 wasn't pure Unix like their beloved Sys 5 Unix . So IBM bent to market 'demand' & re=wrote AIX 3 for the RS/6000.
The RT VRM allowed IBM to run AIX + BSD Unix + PICK *all at the same time*. IBM had had experience with Unix on the 360 & had built the first & arguably *most scalable* mainframe Unix in the late 1970s whilst working with Bell Labs at Piscataway. That Unix got clobbered by IBM marketing who feared it would dent their OS/360 MVS strategy. Bell Labs wanted to order several mainframes with it. IBM marketing baulked & Bell went to Digital who obliged. Th IBM mainframe Unix held the record for scale & performance well into the 1980s.
Bell Labs ran the copy that they had, for years - it was a VM based implementation runing on a VM IBM had developed for NASA projects.
IBM's later crime with Unix was that it tried to improve it - history has shown what happens when public emotion wins out against common sense - Unix got fragmented & by-passed by other products. AIX & HP-UX & Solaris are solid products today but could have been vastly better had their been a common purpose in the Unix community. UI & OSF really broke Unix in two with great assistance from AT&T.
DSM
Edited by dmarker2
March 20, 2002, 09:09:38 PM EST
Re: AIX Odd ????
If AIX was odd it was because IBM added in robust features that made it superior to what was common at the time.
Just to paint a background - was involved with AIX 1, 2 ,3 & 4 & on PS/2, RT & RS/6000.
AIX on the RT was a brilliant development but a group of brainless idiots in the wider world, who didn't understand OSes & virtual machines cried tears of anguish about how AIX 2 wasn't pure Unix like their beloved Sys 5 Unix . So IBM bent to market 'demand' & re=wrote AIX 3 for the RS/6000.
The RT VRM allowed IBM to run AIX + BSD Unix + PICK *all at the same time*. IBM had had experience with Unix on the 360 & had built the first & arguably *most scalable* mainframe Unix in the late 1970s whilst working with Bell Labs at Piscataway. That Unix got clobbered by IBM marketing who feared it would dent their OS/360 MVS strategy. Bell Labs wanted to order several mainframes with it. IBM marketing baulked & Bell went to Digital who obliged. Th IBM mainframe Unix held the record for scale & performance well into the 1980s.
Bell Labs ran the copy that they had, for years - it was a VM based implementation runing on a TSS/VM IBM had developed for MIT projects. It was based on TSS/360 and ran on 360/67 which was a mod 65 with some virtual memory features. TSS was modified significantly for the UNIX implementation. This was in the 1979/80 timeframe. The working system was delivered to Bell Labs (Murray Hill?) in 1980.
IBM System 360/67 - the box that ran the first serious UNIX)
IBM's later crime (late 1980s/ early 1990s in Austin Texas) with Unix was that it tried to improve it with features like VM support, JFS, expandable FS etc: etc: - history has shown what happens when public emotion wins out against common sense - Unix got fragmented & by-passed by other products. AIX & HP-UX & Solaris are solid products today but could have been vastly better had their been a common purpose in the Unix community. UI & OSF really broke Unix in two with great assistance from AT&T.
DSM
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Post #32,922
3/20/02 6:50:39 PM
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Odd, yes
It's like Redhat switching by default to xinetd, a "better" inetd, sure. But something Unix people have no handle on.
"I didn't know you could drive to Europe." -- An eavesdropper, piping in when he overheard a conversation about someone who had driven to Montreal.
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Post #32,946
3/20/02 10:28:27 PM
3/20/02 10:39:35 PM
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Re: If thread is on idiosyncracies
Then there are lots of nits with lots of variants of 'Unix'.
Two variants of Unix I worked with (apart from the RT/AIX VM) both qualify as oddball - these were MACH & AIX/1 on the 370 with its shared file system that ran on PS/2s - that was really oddball & eventually got squashed.
Most people (unix fans) probably know something about Rick Rashid's (CMU) Mach but the 2nd one (370 based) was from one of the other major universities & was originally desined for DG & DEC computers. It allowed a cluster of computers (Servers & Workstations) to look like a single large clustered file system where the parent directory was on the main server each node added a sub-directory which was located on a workstation node. A cluster of 20 or so PS/2s would look like a single large computer. Problems did occur when nodes decided to depart as their filesystem would dissapear so strange things could happen if that cluster node's filesystem was in use.
Re XENIX - I really enjoyed working on Bill Gates version of that - MS had licensed it to ALTOS Corp who ran it on their ACS-x86 family of intel based computers in 1982 which was when I first worked with it. XENIX was so far out in front of other System 7 versions of Unix of the day - Xenix incorporated Bill Joy's infamous Berkeley Enhancements & it was these that gave Unix any commercial power - pure Unix lacked too much that was needed for commercial usage. VI & Termcap, for example, were two features that made a difference. Whilst people can crit VI all they like, the power it brought was that any dumb ascii terminal could be configured in termcap so that an application like VI (and also RM Cobol, MS Basic, etc: - critical to commercial usage) could run without hard coded escape sequences to the terminal. Prior to VI Termcap hard coding to one brand of ascii terminal was the only way to do screen control.
XENIX led the way for many years, as the Unix OS of choice where systems were being placed in real world businesses - Most Universities never understood this & stuck to either UCB or pure AT&T variants (BSD & AT&T Sys III & Sys V).
DSM
Edited by dmarker2
March 20, 2002, 10:39:35 PM EST
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Post #32,956
3/20/02 11:52:27 PM
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Re: If thread is on idiosyncracies
Most Universities never understood this & stuck to either UCB or pure AT&T variants (BSD & AT&T Sys III & Sys V). Now with this, I disagree. AT&T III was utterly unsuitable for business use. AT&T 4 was pure shit for business use. Berkley 4.2 was, perhaps, the first one that could be used for real business. I know, I was in a business that used a Dec Vax with BSD 4.2. The problem (in business terms at the time) was that Dec had no interest in selling systems with Unix, it wanted to sell systems with VMS. They (er, the business I was with) finally had to abandon Digital for HP, IBM, Unisys, Encore, or anyone else that could (maybe) support them. Fuck Digital and the spaded horse they clumped in on. Perhaps that's why I'm so irritated at the HP-Compaq merger. Ride another horse to safety, Compaq-aka-Digital, you and HP are in deep doo-doo.
"I didn't know you could drive to Europe." -- An eavesdropper, piping in when he overheard a conversation about someone who had driven to Montreal.
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Post #33,307
3/24/02 8:53:23 PM
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Re: Odd, yes... But Right!!!
I have installed xinetd on the AIX boxen, we have, a few modications (really additions) to the smit scripts and it's all done.
I even have installed xinetd on RedHat 6.2 to help harden it a bit.
UNIX people (me included), have embrace these changes in the UNIX industry that are good for it. Change to increase a machines survivability are needed. Anything to help keep the administration lower and keep out the handle-jigglers, is needed!
greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!! In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
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Post #32,948
3/20/02 10:31:15 PM
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Doug, I was an engineer on IBM S/360/67.
Among other things, I did the design on the 32-bit (virtual) addressing feature and all the (so called) micro-programming unique to the 360/67 (i.e. in addition to what was on 360/65). Just to be clear, this micro-programming controls the cycle by cycle processes of the CPU to implement the machine instructions as visible to an assembler programmer. Some people call it pico-programming. This is work on bare metal.
The 360/67 machine came about in a bit of a panic when both MIT and Bell Labs decided that no IBM S/360 machine would do and made a deal with GE in Phoenix (yes General Electric made computers then) for computer suitable for time sharing. The OS for the GE machine was going to be Multics. (Unix is a somewhat self-deprecating take off on the Multics name). Anyway, IBM wanted to head off other high tech defections to GE machines with the 360/67 machine and TSS as the OS.
I think you may be mixing up TSS (Time Sharing System) and CP-67 (CP - Control Program). They were different.
TSS was developed in the IBM's Kingston and Mohansic Labs (both in New York State) and was the official IBM OS product for the 360/67. On temporary assignment for a while, I wrote one supervisor module and helped in debugging and resolving software/hardware issues. As usual, hardware guys finish first.
CP-67 was done in Cambridge, MA (near MIT) and initially was not a "product" but more of a research project and a follow-up to software work with a 360/44, an experimental machine. Since it was selling more machines (360/67) than TSS, it did become a product eventually to run on the S/370's and renamed to VM/CMS. TSS on the other hand died off.
Nice to see that picture you've provided. It's 512 KB! (about half a million dollars just for memory) machine. The DAT (Dynamic Address Translator) box is swung out on the left at the rear of the CPU frame. Those were fun days!
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #32,950
3/20/02 10:58:58 PM
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Re: Doug, I was an engineer on IBM S/360/67.
You lived in exciting times !!! - Fancy that - I was a field engineer on the 360/44 - one wierd machine. We had several installed in Australia in the Mining industry & 2 at TAB Sydney. It had no 2-wire ALU for ALU failure checking & used hardware for the GP & FP regs. It also emulated several standard 360 instructions.
I recall the micro-code memory in 360s used to be in TROS modules (Tape Read Only Storage) These were the mylar films with land patterns that got punched to create the 1s & 0s. (Mod 30 hasd CROS Card ROS). AS far as I recall all 360 microcode was either CROS or TROS based. In the 370 it went into EPROMS. Not having seen a 360 machine bigger than a mod 50 or 44 I can't say for certain the 65/67 still used TROS. This went hand in hand with Core memory. 370 switched to solid state memory. The biggest 360 mainframe I ever worked with only had 256K of core memory (360/44).
Re TSS - nup It was TSS & not CP that they did that UNIX on. I wrote a 12 page or so paper on it - it is filed away in the IBM VM forum archieves somewhere in a history of UNIX section. I spoke with guys who did the development work & wrote the paper based on their input - that was back in about 1991/2.
The 67 sure changed things. It is said that it proved the Virtual storage concepts that was then introduced into the 370 line. IIRC 370 wasn't actually introduced until about 1973.
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Post #32,962
3/21/02 12:54:31 AM
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Exciting times indeed! Read this BOX.
Models S/360/65 and 67 used CROS - Capacitive Read Only Storage manufactured in Poughkeepsie, NY. The micro-code was on what was called bit planes. It looked like a printed circuit with gold plated "lands" and covered with a thin sheet of Mylar. The bit planes were carefully and precisely pressed against vertical sense lines on the CPU frame. In effect they were arrays of pairs of tiny capacitors. When a word lines were pulsed with current the sense lines would pick up positive or negative pulses depending on how the capacitor flags were attached. In some ways it's like core memory selection. There were 16 such bit planes, 8 on each side of the CPU. Each bit plane had 256 words of 101 bits, so it's a total of 4K such words. IIRC, these bits were organized into 13 fields which corresponded to the maximum number of simultaneous CPU operations one could do. One of these fields was the address of where to go next. Where to go next was sometime a clustered group of word addresses with the specific address depending on some conditions. There was for example a 64 way branch used in decoding the machine instruction op-code. There was a large variety of things to test in two-way, four-way, eight-way, branches.
The CROS, indeed the whole machine, cycled every 200 nanoseconds, i.e. 5 MHz about like the original PC! The 56 bit CPU adder with expedited carry propagation, used in executing parts of floating point operations, did not have much time to spare.
These machines did have a 8 byte (64 bit) memory bus.
You know, I admired a good CE. Putting in ECs (engineering changes) on machines, was humbling. I had difficulty not having a wire-wrap error in as few as 5 wires. It sure helped to have someone else double-check. Of course, my wiring was done in blue or red insulated "red flag" wire and not the offical yellow. CEs used to do hundreds of wire-wraps, "reaming pins"* and all without error.
I did volunteer to go to Australia to support a couple of machines for a year once, but IBM in it's wisdom decided to train a local.
* reaming was the process of cutting a "land", i.e. printed copper line on a circuit board connecting that pin to other pins.
**BOX and BLUKE take note.**
One of the things I did in those years is an RPQ (IBM TLA for Request for Price Quotation) for the Israeli Defense Force on a S/360/65. It was a special machine instruction called MVC Reversed. An MVC instruction is the Move Character which can move from 1 to 256 bytes from one place to another. The MVC Reversed instruction did that as well but it reversed the order of the character string in the process. Right to left reading of Hebrew was the motivation. Forgive me Allah, for I have sinned. :)
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #32,970
3/21/02 4:46:00 AM
3/22/02 4:37:19 AM
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Re: Exciting times indeed!
Tks for refresing my memory re Capacitive (vs Card). In the mod 30 the CROS cards were like puched cards (in size) & were created by running them through a punch (2540) to clip out the capacitors. They were inserted in a big steel box between air bags & a compressor was powered up to fill the air bags & press the Cards to the frames so as to get the capacitive effect.
I did EC changes on Mod 40s & 30s & their I/O controllers (2841, 2400, 2848, etc) for 12 months straight from mid 1967 to mid 1968 - worked at nights on customers machines - in 12 months only blew-up one 2848 & temporarily clobbered a 2701 with a bad wire wrap. Most of the few problems we had were when faulty circuits that had been idle, got activated by an EC.
We used to do SMS & SLT wire wraps. On SMS pins (1400 gear) we did hand wraps with a squeeze gun but on the 360 SLT pins we used a small hand wrap tool, but always tested the cicuits with the power delete gun. Also did lots of 'reaming' of land patterns using the power delete tool & as best I recall never got one wrong.
Do those buzwords sound sweet ? SLT SLD DSLD ALDs RLDs EC Bill-of-Material & can you believe I still have the same engineers toolkit (with most of the origial tools) that was issued to me in 1967 (even have a pair of core memory tweezers).
Cheers Doug
Edited by dmarker2
March 22, 2002, 04:37:19 AM EST
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Post #33,098
3/21/02 11:00:42 PM
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It is amazing you still have the tools.
I bet you have one of those yellow handled wire strippers for SLT wiring work that looked like small needle nosed pliers. Engineers had to borrow those from CEs, the technician in our computer lab, or the guys on the manufacturing floor. All I have from those days is 360/67 reference card.
And I didn't know that CEs replaced cores in core memory. I remember seeing core planes being assembled in Kingston. Tedious work done by women.
Gosh, all those TLAs. Have not thought about them in a long time.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #33,118
3/22/02 4:34:08 AM
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Re: You are dead right about replacing cores
We field CEs never did to my knowledge. I just couldn't resist obtaining a pair of the tweezers from our tool store just to show people what they looked like. I have no idea why the tool store even had them. Being on night shift we had the power to apply for & obtain practically any tool in the inventory - we had by far the best toolkits of the entire field force.
Funny story re cores - I remember a guy getting an award for about $US100,000 (a massive amount in the mid 1960s) for solving a core problem with hair spray.
Cores being toroids would often try to spin on the x, y & sense lines when they got double pulsed (a flip-the-bit write), after some time a turning core could wear through the enamel coating on the wires & short them.
This engineer suggested that all core memory be sprayed with hair lacquer which of course sealed them & stopped them turning. He saved the company so much in repairs that they awarded him a 'bundle'.
Cheers Doug
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Post #33,154
3/22/02 12:05:52 PM
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Yep, I hear about that Suggestion Award.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #33,225
3/23/02 4:27:03 AM
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Question about core memory.
Just how physically big was a single ferrite core in core memory? A few cm? Or less than a mm? Or were there several sizes?
Wade, who has never seen real core memory.
"All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #33,229
3/23/02 6:44:19 AM
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Re: Question about core memory. - My memory of core :-)
This was invented by An Wang (later of WANG fame)
There were several (3?) different sizes for the cores. 1400 family (IBM) had one size - System/360 had at least 2 sizes.
The smallest I recall were so small we needed fine pointed tweezers to pick one up. These had to be about 0.5 mm
Alex can you add any info ?
Doug
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Post #33,242
3/23/02 2:02:01 PM
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Now imagine threading R/W wires x-turns, through EACH one..
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Post #33,263
3/23/02 8:24:14 PM
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Re: core memory.
The [link|http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/CoreMemory.html|Core memory] I remember seeing used cores about 2 mm outside diameter. I'm sure some were much smaller.
I also remember seeing some made of a ceramic bobbin with a metal tape wound on it. These were quite large ~5 mm and used to perform logic functions. These I saw during a summer job with Burroughs (which later merged with Sperry Rand) to form Unisys.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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Post #33,309
3/24/02 9:23:26 PM
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Ah...
I have a hazy memory of a work colleague showing me an exposed minature core-memory in the late '80s. It all makes sense now.
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #33,490
3/26/02 12:52:59 PM
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hey you could do big/little I(E)ndian that way!
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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