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New There's a difference between stupid and ignorant
I'll cop to ignorance. Hell, that's what this has been about (for me) from the beginning.

I can't remember who made the reference to Jewish Sunday school, but I do remember the substance being that they were taught all the history of Jewish oppression.

Guess what? I didn't go to Jewish Sunday school. Or any other day of the week either. I have no more reason to know the history of Jews than I do the history of Tamils. (Random group I came up with that I know next-to-nothing about.)

That information was not in my head, so how could the understanding be there? You may think that, as a member of the majority culture, I'm damaged and can only learn by repetition. But next time I ask a question, maybe you can try a straight answer first and see if it gets through.
--

Drew
New (#30564)
http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30564

(This has been an interesting thread. Sorry you got flamed.)

Cheers,
Scott.
New you have no need to have a history of the jews
tamils or yupiks. You only need to know that its nice to be sovreign and it sux if you dont.
New I apologize for the overreaction
But you are somewhere in between, at least you were a couple of days ago. You were being purposefully ignorant, ignoring evidence, just because you couldn't believe people are either so stupid or so evil.

I gave you a method of solving your ignorance. You read a bit, no where near enough,and then restated the cornerstone of your attitude, which is simply and easily demonstrably incorrect.

So, at what point does lazy ignorance become stupidity?

I just went to the Wiki page here:
http://en.wikipedia....ibel_against_Jews

See those little areas that hightlight when your cursor passes over them? Start clicking. Don't ask me for my personal viewpoint, make your own. But try to make it from as much material as possible.


From one of your original posts on the matter:
http://iwt.mikevital....iwt?postid=30640

Is her premise factually correct? Do the majority of the Jews currently in Israel have roots that go back before 1948, or do the majority come from people who moved in after the creation of the modern state of Israel?


I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out.
. But if she's correct that most of the Jews in Israel moved in after 1948, then she has a point in calling them occupiers.


Dude, you really wrote that.


I honestly don't know the answer, and wouldn't know where to look to find out.
.

Um, we have the most incredible information resource available, to make our own judgments. It starts with Google and goes many directions. You have to be willing to spend a couple of days of reading, and then judge the correctness of what you read. That is why you need to read multiple viewpoints of the same stories where possible.

Which before the internet was practically impossible unless you were smart, rich and lived in major city next to a library.

And BTW: I don't support a large amount of what Israel does. But I KNOW, if there is no Israel, then most of the people in Israel would probably be dead. If their actions were judged against the actions of their neighbors, they'd be f'ing saints.

But they are not, they are judged by people comfy across the world, against a backdrop of cultural dislike.

Maybe you simply don't like to read and thought you could ask the IGM and someone would answer you, but it is doubtful. No matter what you may have learned in this thread, it barely scratches the surface of 2 thousand years of being hunted.

Remember the old Saturday night tag line:
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Do you get a chuckle out of the skit?

Not me, and I'm a lightweight on paranoia and historical perspective. Does it make me angry? Not at 1st. No, it makes me incredibly saddened. And fearful for the next one. A bit more thought and the terror and the revulsion pop up. Anger comes, but only if I can find a focus for the anger. And people deserving of the anger are usually out of reach from me, so I simply have to accept it.

Have you ever been told something that drops a rock over your heart? The moment you realize that the people surrounding you are possible of such incredible horror? Oh yeah, just now. But you don't have to worry, when the moment comes, they won't be killing you. They'll just ask you to ignore them when they are coming after me. And you may or may not have accepted it as a reality.

Now look on the flip side. The horror is out there, and there is a segment of the population that simply doesn't believe it. And if they don't, they then want to know why it is out there. And want the answer in a few moments.
Expand Edited by crazy June 12, 2010, 08:53:47 AM EDT
New Also, this entire interaction with me was a lesson in Jewish
thought, at least mine and how I feel the ONLY way to learn is to either experience something or research it yourself. A single viewpoint is simply that, a single viewpoint. And single reference can be bullshit.

So you need the EXPERIENCE of RESEARCHING for yourself.

There is no single thing I could have answered, at least that you'd accept.

While the Christians didn't like us because we killed Christ (according to them), the Romans before them didn't like us as well. We didn't believe in being killed and taken as slaves, and we fought to the death.

Oh, actually, I did give the single thing. Early on.

WE DON'T KNEEL.

TO ANYONE. TO ANY KING. TO ANY GOD. TO ANY PRIEST.

WE DON'T KNEEL.

We don't allow ANY entity ownership of our being, our identity, simply because someone told us to.

When you were a little kid, and you BELIEVED, part of that belief was totally giving yourself over to the God and Church that you were a part of. You BELIEVED, and it made it OK to lose your identity.

It's just like being in love. And to cap it off, the only way you are supposed to feel this level of joy is in a church sanctioned marriage. F'em.

Anything they told you at that point was because they LOVED you. Right? That was the line.

We don't simply accept whatever line of bullshit we are being fed is the truth.

We research it.

Me trying to get you to figure this out for yourself is about as core to my being as anything else.
New "Go look it up" isn't helpful
You told me to look up "Jewish blood libel". On the first page were links to forums.catholic.com where someone linked to a book by a Jewish writer saying that yes, there was a Jewish sect that had sacrificed Jewish children. There was also a link to jewwatch.com. I guess you can figure out where they're coming from. Should I have believed them?

Yes, I spent some time following links, but I can only read ranting for so long. Obviously there are some people who really hate Jews. That doesn't make them accurate historical sources. Does it make blood libel the primary accusation against Jews? I can't tell.

As for the population statistics, I searched on "when did Jews move to Israel". I got no useful numbers on the first three pages of links, but plenty more ranting. I didn't think to use the term "demographics", but Box found the numbers.

I could spend a year doing research and maybe come close the amount of information about Jews that you've accumulated in your lifetime. But I won't. Understanding is important to me, but it's not the central issue in my life.

I understand what you're saying about research, but it's not the only way to learn. No one can research everything. We all have to pick and choose and, to some extent, rely on the opinions of others we trust for the rest.

So I don't subscribe to your belief that research and personal experience are the ONLY way to learn. I also don't accept outrageous claims about important issues just because I heard it from the right guy with the right funny hat.

If I don't know, I'll try to find someone I trust who does know, and I'll ask them. If what they say doesn't make sense, I'll ask more questions and/or go follow up on what they've said. You know, like I've been doing for three days with you.

And we're still using the same words, but meaning different things. To you "assimilate" means "kneel". If I moved to Israel, and spent the years of research and converted, I would have assimilated into that culture. Is that kneeling?

I heard a story once of a nice Jewish boy who said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's." Yeah, I know, wrong book. But that was written when Jesus was still a Jew, not a Christian. I read that as a lesson about assimilation. Accept that parts of the majority culture that aren't central to your identity, but keep the parts that matter.

I don't think that's a good idea because it's in the bible. I think it's one of many good ideas that happens to be in the bible, alongside a whole bunch of mythology, misogyny and hypocrisy.
--

Drew
New here is a single page that covers most of it
http://remember.org/...ot.classical.html
New Thanks very much.
New Yes, that's what I was looking for
You might be surprised (or not) that in 7 years of attending Catholic school I never heard any of that.
--

Drew
New not surprised at all
catholic school is about catholics, not others.
New Good list
Now I know what to point to the next time.
New Concise ergo Nice.
While I was aware of maybe 80%, the chronology and intelligent organization makes some of the 20% worth further exploration.

(I was not anti-religio as a tyke. While my mater possessed a sort of subliminal acceptance of prevailing Xian 'concepts of their God' -- she had the Good Sense not to try to point me (nor allow any proxy, as at the boarding schools, to inculcate -- beyond the 'fact' of there being periodic religio-infused assemblies there.) Consequently, as adult matters + abilities began to supersede thoughts derived from the usual treadmill of school-directed, test-oriented plots -- I came by my anti-corporate-religion decision entirely through observation, reading and then deciding from experience.

But, as crazy has been emphasizing, repeating when it does not seem to penetrate enough -- grokking the Jewish situational-history requires some considerable experience of Real History ==> that which requires (also) the delving critically into one's local, Official/National-sanctioned and Bowdlerized versions: ever to earn usage of that Real- modifier, in any aspect of the whole.

Thus ...
With the caveat succinctly stated by Mike re. overall performance of the extant government of Israel / their peculiar blindspots regarding ever Noticing the parallels between their employment of Power and ... that Usage which they have ever Fled-from:

I claim to comprehend sufficiently 'how it came to be' that Jews have been such a handy target for deflection of attention from any pol's current tight-spot. The 'kneeling' metaphor is necessary and sufficient to recognize the absolute necessity of there being Jewish Territory *somewhere* on what's left of this planet. (For me this has 0 to do with any concepts of covenants with supernaturals or other meta-Real Estate transactions.) It is simply necessary to protect these non-kneelers from every other brand-name of One True God-worshippers.

Let's SomeOne! -- get bus(ier) holding up a Mirror to the Israeli gummint Et Al, before some next action is taken to be so odious that even supporters [of the above, generally] join the brainless, slavering mobs with shouted simplicities One More Time. But with nukes.

<rest case ... for 2x4 upside heads of those myopic and amnesiac solons.>





I could almost see voting for Palin in 2012 on the grounds that this sorry ratfucking excuse for a republic, this savage, smirking, predatory empire deserves her. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers!
-- via RC
New More at Sullivan: "It's much funnier in Arabic"
http://andrewsulliva...-mistake-ctd.html

Cheers,
Scott.
New great, now I have to find an allen king clip
not this one, the hemeneh, hemenah one
http://www.youtube.c...tch?v=eXwqoblFlEU
great, no link but essentially the same. As a young comic dishwasher watching the old time comics doing standup the best joke was half english half yiddish. I cant explain it well enough by writing. Same effect tho, doesnt translate well into straight english.
RIP Alen, saw him live and it was a great experience
thanx,
bill
New :-)
That's a funny clip.

I haven't been able to find what you're looking for, but I did find this - http://crazymotion.n...Irb9fNRrMjAy.html

:-D

Cheers,
Scott.
     Felix: On being wrong. - (Another Scott) - (97)
         OT it would be interesting to see - (boxley) - (14)
             Since no one is talking about the substance ... - (drook) - (13)
                 lots of Israeli Jews come from arab nations - (boxley) - (2)
                     So according to that - (drook) - (1)
                         huh? I do see both sides - (boxley)
                 I don't hear it that way. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                     People on the Right??? - (beepster) - (5)
                         Yeah, Rahm is very right wing. -NT - (jake123) - (4)
                             Re: Yeah, Rahm is very right wing. - (beepster) - (3)
                                 You only think that because you're an American -NT - (jake123) - (2)
                                     well since we are discussing american politics - (beepster) - (1)
                                         You're not just talking about American politics - (jake123)
                     agreed, helen should not have been put out to pasture - (boxley) - (2)
                         Then you pay her salary - (crazy) - (1)
                             she already has a website -NT - (boxley)
         Sigh - (crazy) - (81)
             you mean like blacks at a lunch counter in birmingham? - (boxley)
             Her boss has the right to fire her - (drook) - (78)
                 persecution - (boxley) - (77)
                     It would appear, then ... - (drook) - (76)
                         pretty much -NT - (boxley) - (74)
                             Exactly what I was thinking - (crazy) - (73)
                                 good article here - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Good ending - (crazy)
                                 You gave examples, but not why - (drook) - (69)
                                     My take on why - (hnick)
                                     Refuse to assimilate? - (crazy) - (65)
                                         That's a pretty heaping helping of disdain, don't you think? - (drook) - (64)
                                             Yup - (crazy) - (63)
                                                 Wow - (drook) - (61)
                                                     Congrats, you've been borged and are offering the choice - (crazy)
                                                     so the only way to be a good jew is not to be a jew? - (boxley) - (59)
                                                         Nope (to both of you) - (drook) - (58)
                                                             I see let them kill you and dont whine about it, got it - (boxley) - (41)
                                                                 You're equating assimilation with death, I don't - (drook) - (40)
                                                                     Re: You're equating assimilation with death, it is, - (boxley) - (39)
                                                                         Can you answer this, then? - (drook) - (38)
                                                                             Dont welcome outsiders, what makes you say that? - (boxley) - (37)
                                                                                 AAAARRRRHHHH!! - (drook) - (36)
                                                                                     so why all the complaining all the time? - (boxley)
                                                                                     Being different is central to all cultures - (crazy) - (34)
                                                                                         What does the Vatican have to do with me? - (folkert) - (1)
                                                                                             That is drook specific - (crazy)
                                                                                         Power corrupts, Film at 11 - (drook) - (31)
                                                                                             Heheheeh - (crazy) - (30)
                                                                                                 You think you're tweaking a devout Christian? - (drook) - (29)
                                                                                                     Nope - (crazy) - (28)
                                                                                                         Last try - (drook) - (27)
                                                                                                             Tradition? - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                             nit - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Fairy nuff - (drook) - (1)
                                                                                                                     I agree with that -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                             I'm done - (crazy) - (22)
                                                                                                                 last paragraph an excellent summary -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                                 You finally answered me, thanks - (drook) - (4)
                                                                                                                     Mass stupidity. - (malraux) - (3)
                                                                                                                         But look at the Tea Party - (drook) - (2)
                                                                                                                             But it's still stupidity, non? - (malraux)
                                                                                                                             You'd have fun at... - (folkert)
                                                                                                                 Then you are as stupid as the people you are making fun of - (crazy) - (15)
                                                                                                                     There's a difference between stupid and ignorant - (drook) - (14)
                                                                                                                         (#30564) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                         you have no need to have a history of the jews - (boxley)
                                                                                                                         I apologize for the overreaction - (crazy) - (11)
                                                                                                                             Also, this entire interaction with me was a lesson in Jewish - (crazy) - (10)
                                                                                                                                 "Go look it up" isn't helpful - (drook) - (9)
                                                                                                                                     here is a single page that covers most of it - (boxley) - (8)
                                                                                                                                         Thanks very much. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             Yes, that's what I was looking for - (drook) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 not surprised at all - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                         Good list - (crazy)
                                                                                                                                         Concise ergo Nice. - (Ashton)
                                                                                                                                         More at Sullivan: "It's much funnier in Arabic" - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                                                             great, now I have to find an allen king clip - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                 :-) - (Another Scott)
                                                             Oh, I do - (crazy) - (13)
                                                                 What values are you preserving? - (drook) - (12)
                                                                     The right not to be killed - (crazy) - (11)
                                                                         I must not be asking this clearly enough - (drook) - (10)
                                                                             how about a different question - (boxley) - (7)
                                                                                 As long as there are X and not-X in the world ... - (drook) - (6)
                                                                                     No, it's called rule of law - (crazy) - (1)
                                                                                         I'm responding to Box's question - (drook)
                                                                                     im not wanting to dismantle israel - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                         Show me where I said that - (drook) - (2)
                                                                                             never said you believe that - (boxley)
                                                                                             We didn't kick Hitler's ass to rescue the Jews - (mhuber)
                                                                             You're over thinking it. - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                                 +1 on both statements -NT - (boxley)
                                                             Oh, and quoting the bible really doesn't do it for me - (crazy) - (1)
                                                                 you want shrimp with that? -NT - (boxley)
                                                 Re: Yup -- Lovely compilation.. - (Ashton)
                                     refuse to assimilate? Hoke hay white boy :-) here is a link - (boxley)
                                     It obviously goes back a long time... - (Another Scott)
                                 Is it the wide spread? - (mhuber)
                         I know EXACTLY the moment - (crazy)
             Boffo thread.. - (Ashton)

I like when things catch fire and explode, which means I do not have your best interests in mind.
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