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New The Economist FTW!
http://www.economist.../2010/06/taxation

[...]

But let's be honest for a moment. According to this Bloomberg story, Mr Lampert is worth $3 billion. If he earns just 1% per year on that fortune—and he certainly earns much more—then he takes home $30 million in income. Per year. That's 600 times the median household income in America. It's more money than a person can reasonably spend. With that much money you can binge every day, and yet the money will just keep accumulating.

And yet Mr Lampert feels he needs to take special steps to avoid paying the regular income tax rate for individuals in the highest tax bracket, which begins at around $373,000 (the 15% bracket, by the way, begins at $8,375 for an individual). Obviously, most of the people bringing home that level of income are generating it in wages and salary, and they have no choice but to pay the income tax rate. I'm sure if you approached Mr Lampert and told him he didn't work for his money, he'd bristle at the suggestion. And yet he wants to continue to take advantage of the silly rule by which the money hedge fund managers make from doing their job is taxed as capital gains rather than income.

As far as I can tell, this is entirely within the law. But I don't think it's improper to declare it obscene. Shameful, even. With a fortune of that size, additional wealth is about little more than score-keeping. You can afford to be a grown-up and pay the same taxes as everyone else.

It sounds horribly populist to say so, but the fact that this kind of behaviour is lauded in the financial press when it ought to be scorned is a real problem. It's a problem in that it reveals big money men to be as brazen in their behaviour as they were before the crash. But it's also an indicator that something remains broken in America's attitude toward wealth.


Bingo. That needs to change - and soon.

(via Felix-Salmon)

Cheers,
Scott.
New yup, that is income earned and needs to be taxes as such
New No. That would be unfairly taxing the rich.
We all know that ain't right!
Yeah... I am playing the other side, even though I do stand to inherit a substantial amount from relation.
New General idiocy.
How do you think wealth gets created? By people figuring out the best ways to NOT GIVE ANYONE ELSE THEIR MONEY!

I guess that's obscene now.

So it is also obscene for the waitress to not declare her tips as income too, eh?
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
New so why is your country's economy is circling the bowl
if rich people using their money to avoid paying for their share of the commons isn't it?
New I didn't realize "Weath of Nations" was a tax manual.
Adam Smith did have a few things to say about them, though: http://www.perceptio...k.com/maxims.html

I. The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities;

that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.

The expense of government to the individuals of a great nation is like the expense of management to the joint tenants of a great estate, who are all obliged to contribute in proportion to their respective interests in the estate.

In the observation or neglect of this maxim consists what is called the equality or inequality of taxation.

Every tax, it must be observed once for all, which falls finally upon one only of the three sorts of revenue above mentioned, is necessarily unequal in so far as it does not affect the other two.

[...]


You think Mr. Lampert is contributing in a fair proportion by being taxed at 15%, that his revenue should be taxed differently than your waitress? I think Mr. Smith would be appalled, myself.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Nice that Mr Smith says such wonderful things.
So did many other figures, including Marx.

If the rules were such that this gentleman could NOT move his money to himself in 2 different methods and receive 2 different treatments I would not cry for him.

What I AM saying, is that expecting him to pay 20% more that he has to is an unrealistic expectation (contrary to his very nature..and actually contrary to almost everyones nature)..and to tag it as "obscene" is lunacy.

When is the last time you walked into a car dealer and were perfectly fine looking at the sticker and paying that price?
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
New What's obscene is the mindset that created that rule.
So Adam Smith is like Marx now? :-p

Of course if the tax break is available to him, he's going to take it.

The big problem is the mindset that created the tax break in the first place, not him taking advantage of it. It's another symptom of the broken tax system.

Of course, I have little doubt that he and/or his firm has lobbied to keep the rule in place. This gift to him and others like him didn't appear out of thin air.

On the destruction of wealth if people pay their fair share of taxes canard:

http://ctj.org/pdf/c...dinterest2010.pdf (2 page .pdf):

Don’t We Want to Encourage Venture Capital?

The venture capital industry is lobbying for a carve-out from the carried interest provision. They point out they foster small business, encourage innovation, and create jobs, so we don’t want this type of investment to dry up. It’s a tempting argument, but try to see through the smoke. The change affects only the managers of venture capital funds. It doesn’t change how the investors are taxed. The managers will take home less cash, but they still have plenty of incentive to work hard and make the fund successful—remember that 20 percent interest they get, plus the 2 percent management fee. The venture capitalists provide important services, but no more important than the teachers who educate our kids to create the next round of innovations. Teachers’ salaries shouldn’t be taxed at higher rates than venture capitalists’ compensation.


HTH.

Cheers,
Scott.
New a commision is income, not investment return
no different than a vacuum cleaner salesman. Loophole needs to be closed. Until then it can be used, thats how it works.
thanx,
bill
New Well, when Adam Smith and Karl Marx agree
there might be something to the item on which they agree.

Actually, I suspect a serious student of the two could find a substantial body of theory in common between them.

And I think it is valuable to remember that the robber barons created Karl Marx. (In rather the same way that the Catholic Church teaches that giving up sex is a bad thing to do.) Without them - or with them properly regulated - nobody would have listened to him.
---------------------------------------
I think it's perfectly clear we're in the wrong band.
(Tori Amos)
New So if no one gives anyone any money, we'll all be rich?
Money isn't value. It's a marker we use to exchange value.

Wealth gets created by people doing useful things, which create something that didn't exist before.
--

Drew
New Pretty much
but a wealthy individual is certainly not going to volunteer to give away 20% more of anything for no return value.

That would be the point.
I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
New Not having the US hit a debt wall
because of their most awesome Galtiness is not a net benefit to wealthy people in America? If the US does hit that wall, the US dollar will tank and their wealth will disappear along with it.
New talk to nother, no such thing :-)
New Semi-related: An OpEd at the NYTimes today.
http://www.nytimes.c...p=&pagewanted=all

ON March 19, 1928, eight years into the reign of constitutional Prohibition, Pierre S. du Pont wrote a letter to William P. Smith, one of the very few people he ever addressed by first name. Du Pont was among the wealthiest men in the world, chairman of both his family’s chemical colossus and the du Pont-controlled General Motors Corporation. Smith worked for a less well-known enterprise that Pierre du Pont also dominated: the Association Against the Prohibition Amendment.

“The object of the organization,” du Pont told his friend Bill, “is not merely the return of the use of alcoholic beverages in the United States.” He went on, “Another important factor is the tremendous loss of revenue to our government through the Prohibition laws” — the revenue once collected through taxes on liquor and beer. With the end of Prohibition, he wrote, “the revenue of the government would be increased sufficiently to warrant the abolition of the income tax and corporation tax.”

[...]

Through the first nine years of Prohibition, income taxes went a long way toward covering the federal government’s costs. But just as organized Drys had backed the income tax in 1913 in order to breathe life into Prohibition, a du Pont-led group of well-financed Wets would eventually seek to kill Prohibition so that the income tax might die with it.

The idea had first emerged in 1923, when the publisher of The Wall Street Journal, Clarence W. Barron, argued that ending Prohibition would enable the government to collect $2 billion a year and abolish the income tax. In 1926, Pierre du Pont’s brother Irénée told an associate that General Motors would save $10 million in corporate taxes each year with the return of the alcohol levies. Irénée’s specific solution — imposition of a 3-cent tax on every glass of beer — would, effectively, make the working poor and the unemployed finance tax relief for the rich.

These plutocratic longings began to take palpable form when prosperity was upended by the Crash of 1929. The Depression corroded tax collections: federal revenue based on 1930 incomes was down 15 percent, the following year saw a 37 percent drop, and the year after that 26 percent — a vertiginous 60 percent collapse in just three years. Capital gains taxes that had brought $1.5 billion into the Treasury from 1926 to 1929 dived into negative territory as the allowance for capital losses accrued. At the same time, the demand for government spending — for relief, for reconstruction projects, for anything to restart the comatose economy — soared.

By 1930, the chemical du Ponts had recruited a roster of other gilt-edged names to their anti-Prohibition cause: automotive Fishers, financial Harrimans, oil Harknesses, rubber Goodriches. Their publicity campaign featured pamphlets like “What Price Prohibition?” (Answer: with the return of legal alcohol, “the necessity of levying income taxes would be eliminated”) and “The Cost of Prohibition and Your Income Tax.”

[...]


I won't spoil the ending. ;-)

Needless to say, the super-rich have had their idealistic-sounding reasons for wanting government to do something, but in many (if not most) cases underneath it all there seems to be a desire to protect their own wealth and power.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Cheers,
Scott.
     The Economist FTW! - (Another Scott) - (14)
         yup, that is income earned and needs to be taxes as such -NT - (boxley) - (1)
             No. That would be unfairly taxing the rich. - (folkert)
         General idiocy. - (beepster) - (10)
             so why is your country's economy is circling the bowl - (jake123)
             I didn't realize "Weath of Nations" was a tax manual. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                 Nice that Mr Smith says such wonderful things. - (beepster) - (3)
                     What's obscene is the mindset that created that rule. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         a commision is income, not investment return - (boxley)
                     Well, when Adam Smith and Karl Marx agree - (mhuber)
             So if no one gives anyone any money, we'll all be rich? - (drook) - (3)
                 Pretty much - (beepster) - (2)
                     Not having the US hit a debt wall - (jake123) - (1)
                         talk to nother, no such thing :-) -NT - (boxley)
         Semi-related: An OpEd at the NYTimes today. - (Another Scott)

What. He. Said.
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