What values are you preserving?

Post #327,726 by drook 6/10/10 1:25:19 PM Reply	What values are you preserving? I define "culture" as a set of generally-agreed-upon values. I believe assimilation can mean that some of the values of the minority group are absorbed into the majority group. I would think a minority group would like for their values to be transmitted to the majority. What Jewish values do you think other cultures should adopt? Do you think resistance to those values is the source of conflict? For instance, some cultures believe sharia law says that a woman should be stoned to death for the sin of being raped. I disagree with that value. If I were forced into a culture that tried to impose that value on me, I'd be willing to fight over it. In France there's debate around Muslim women wearing head coverings. People are debating whether that's a value worth fighting over. But I keep asking why Jews are persecuted, and all I keep hearing is "because we refuse to be assimilated". So the cultural value that's worth fighting to the death over is the willingness to fight to the death? I know that's wrong. So what are the values implicit in "being a Jew" that people are fighting over? What is it that Jews are fighting for, other than "being Jewish"? Please give me an answer that doesn't sound like "cultural purity", because I'm Irish, Italian, Scottish, Welsh, German, and probably a few other things. I don't have a strong racial or religious identity, and find arguments for purity both offensive and frightening. -- Drew
Post #327,742 by crazy 6/10/10 4:34:08 PM Reply	The right not to be killed Dude, you are not getting it. You have classic majority think. You have no f'ing clue.
Post #327,745 by drook 6/10/10 5:06:47 PM Reply	I must not be asking this clearly enough If a single Jew were so thoroughly assimilated that no one knew he was a Jew, no one would kill him for being a Jew. Can we agree on that? Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone should do that, or that anyone should be required to do that, I'm just setting a baseline for the question. At the other end of the scale is a Hasidic rabbi who is killed for being a Jew. Now the questions. First: In the case of the rabbi killed for being a Jew, what exactly do you think motivates the person who kills him? I'm stipulating that he is killed "because he's a Jew", but I don't understand the motivation to kill someone because of their race, nationality or religion. (Being Jewish can mean any of those depending on context, right?) So what I'm asking -- what I've been asking all along -- is why do you think some people are willing to do that? There are lots of cultures that have been "outsiders". If someone wants to kill outsiders there are plenty to pick from. Why are Jews so often the target? This isn't a trap question, I really want to know the answer, because it doesn't make sense to me. So either it's not actually true, or there's a reason that I don't understand. Second question: If we again stipulate that someone is willing to kill people because they're Jews, somewhere between fully assimilated and Hasidic rabbi there is some level of assimilation that won't trigger whatever is the impulse I'm asking about with my first question. You're not Orthodox, so you are apparently willing to give up some of the values they hold. But apparently there are some values you still hold, because giving those values up you equate with "kneeling to the conqueror". What values are those? What is it besides "being Jewish" that makes assimilation unacceptable? The reason I'm asking is not because I think I know how people should act. I just think that if millions of people are at war over something, then I'd like to know what that something is. You say I don't get it. Dude, I've been saying that since the beginning. Yes, I have classic majority think. I am part of the majority and have been my whole life. I. Don't. Get. It. Please, explain it to me. -- Drew
Post #327,747 by boxley 6/10/10 6:04:48 PM Reply	how about a different question Is there going to be a piece of dirt on this planet where only jews can decide to kill jews? Cureently there is, a lot of reasonable majority folks think that the answer to that is no and are doing their best to insure that jews may only live with the grace of an intolerant majority. Why do they think that?
Post #327,751 by drook 6/10/10 6:58:38 PM Reply	As long as there are X and not-X in the world ... ... some X will try to kill some not-X. What you're asking for is a place with no Jews. They have a word for that: Ethnic cleansing. -- Drew
Post #327,753 by crazy 6/10/10 7:16:28 PM Reply	No, it's called rule of law As the majority, you see the problem as someone else's, and the choice doesn't include them surviving.
Post #327,760 by drook 6/10/10 8:17:31 PM Reply	I'm responding to Box's question "...where only jews can decide to kill jews" -- Drew
Post #327,769 by boxley 6/10/10 9:51:58 PM Reply	im not wanting to dismantle israel since that currently is the only place that jews decide why and when jews get killed. I am asking why the majority thinks that should be changed? You are part of that majority so I was asking you why people think that way. Not to kill all jews, just not allow them to have their own nation state and be dependent on the good will of the majority to stay alive? That is what I am asking.
Post #327,772 by drook 6/10/10 10:01:28 PM Reply	Show me where I said that Or are you asking me as the spokesman for the majority? Fine, I'll take a shot. (Note that I don't agree with any of this, but it's an easy argument to make.) Jews wanted their own land, because they were persecuted everywhere else. They got their own land, and they act no better than anyone else had. Besides, we fought WWII and kicked Germany's ass. If you were all just going to leave Germany anyway, why did we have to fight a war first? Easy, cheap, lazy thinking. But seems compelling to someone who doesn't know the history and doesn't care to look into it. Which is why I am asking. Because I want to understand. -- Drew
Post #327,775 by boxley 6/10/10 10:04:42 PM Reply	never said you believe that however you are asking a minority why the majority hates them? Perhaps they are too busy living and avoiding the majority to really care why, they just want to live
Post #327,800 by mhuber 6/11/10 4:07:46 AM Reply	We didn't kick Hitler's ass to rescue the Jews We did that to stop him conquering the world. Rescuing the remaining Jews was a nice side effect. The historical record on WW II is even clearer than Lincoln's many statements that he was preserving the Union, not freeing the slaves. --------------------------------------- I think it's perfectly clear we're in the wrong band. (Tori Amos)
Post #327,770 by Silverlock 6/10/10 9:59:51 PM Reply	You're over thinking it. Jews have been persecuted, pogromed, and final solutioned (except when convenient for business) pretty much as long as we can recall. It may have started because they were easily identifiable as "other" and thus handy for shifting blame or appeasing rabble or whatever. But it has become a cultural thing. As Zero would say, Tradition! Passed down through families. You ask for a reason for hate. I think you must remain unsatisfied. This is in no way a defense of the nation of Israel. Its leaders are abysmal, its policies abhorrent and its influence on US policy is ludicrous. I think the single most compelling piece of evidence for global warming is that Fox News viewers think it's a hoax.
Post #327,776 by boxley 6/10/10 10:05:50 PM Reply	+1 on both statements

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