"The OPR report is essentially this era's Hiroshima."

Fallows: http://jamesfallows...._reading_this.php

[...] please read the full Office of Professional Responsibility report on the "torture memo" misconduct of Jay Bybee, now a Federal appeals court judge; and John Yoo, now a tenured professor at the UC Berkeley law school. The report is available as a 10MB, 289-page PDF download here[*]. Seriously, this is a document that informed Americans should be familiar with, as a basis for any future discussion about the costs and consequences of a "global war on terror" and about the maintenance of American "values" in the world.

Through American history, there have been episodes of brutality and abuse that, in hindsight, span a very wide range of moral acceptability. There is no way to "understand" lynchings that makes them other than abominations. But -- to use the extreme case -- America's use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki will always be the subject of first-order moral debate, about whether any "larger good" (forcing an end to the war) could justify the immediate suffering, the decades-long aftereffects, and the crossing of the "first use" frontier that this decision represented.

My point now is not to go through the A-bomb debate. It is to say that anyone who is serious in endorsing the A-bomb decision has to have fully faced the consequences. This is why John Hersey's Hiroshima was requisite basic knowledge for anyone arguing for or against the use of the bomb. The OPR report is essentially this era's Hiroshima. As Hersey's book does, it makes us confront what was done in our name -- "our" meaning the citizens of the United States.

If you want to argue that "whatever" happened in the "war on terror" was necessary because of the magnitude and novelty of the threat, then you had better be willing to face what the "whatever" entailed. Which is what this report brings out. And if you believe -- as I do, and have argued through the years -- that what happened included excessive, abusive, lawless, immoral, and self-defeating acts done wrongly in the name of American "security," then this is a basic text as well.

[...]

To conclude the logical sequence, if not to resolve this issue (which will be debated past the time any of us are around), you should then read the recent memo by David Margolis, of the Justice Department, overruling the OPR's recommendation that Yoo and Bybee should be punished further. It is available as a 69-page PDF here[**]. Margolis is a widely-esteemed voice of probity and professional excellence inside the Department. What is most striking to me as a lay reader is how much of his argument rests not on strictly legal judgments but rather on a historical/political assertion.

[...]

[*] Linky: http://judiciary.hou...lReport090729.pdf

Unfortunately, that version is a PDF image file, so it's not searchable. I don't know if a searchable PDF is available anywhere else.

The comments about Yoo (PDF p.257-260) are damning and pull few punches. Bybee gets off easier, but seemingly only due to incompetence (PDF p.261-263).

[**] Linky: http://judiciary.hou...lisMemo100105.pdf (also a PDF image file)

In the Margolis memo there's lots of mumbo-jumbo about a "known and unambiguous applicable standard". I haven't read it carefully, but it seems as if it was written to let Yoo and Bybee off the hook from the start. Perhaps that's appropriate, but it's unsatisfying.

Fallows concludes:

The "torture years" are now an indelible part of our history. The names Bybee and Yoo will always be associated with these policies. Whether you view them as patriots willing to do the dirty work of defending the nation -- the Dick Cheney view, the 24 view, which equates the torture memos with Abraham Lincoln's imposition of martial law -- or view them as damaging America's moral standing in ways that will take years to repair (my view), you owe it to yourself to read these original documents. I tried to make this point in more halting real-time fashion yesterday in a talk with Guy Raz on NPR.[***]

[***] Linky: http://www.npr.org/t...storyId=123928726

He said there that we should remember it took decades for the US to acknowledge and atone for the internment of citizens of Japanese decent during WWII. I hope it doesn't take as long in this case...

Cheers,
Scott.

Even in my religion. The Catholic Church is opposed to executions, except where the State is incapable of preventing a killer from killing again.

The documents they produced sure look like conspiracy to torture. A conspiracy that resulted in people being killed. That is a death penalty crime under US law.

Perhaps they think they are heroes, warriors in a clash of religions and cultures. But they are criminals. Like those other criminals who want to be seen as warriors, they deserve trials in Federal courts. Unlike those other criminals, these have powerful accomplices likely to release them so they can kill again. There is a moral reason to seek the death penalty - mere imprisonment will not stop them.

They apparently did their alleged crimes knowing that innocent people would die horribly as a result. Just like those other guys.

Unlike the other guys, they used the power of the US government and claimed to be acting for us. They dishonor us. They bring shame on the Republic. They couldn't befoul the flag more if they used it as toilet paper.

Post #321,836 by Another Scott 2/21/10 10:58:19 PM Reply	"The OPR report is essentially this era's Hiroshima." Fallows: http://jamesfallows...._reading_this.php [...] please read the full Office of Professional Responsibility report on the "torture memo" misconduct of Jay Bybee, now a Federal appeals court judge; and John Yoo, now a tenured professor at the UC Berkeley law school. The report is available as a 10MB, 289-page PDF download here[]. Seriously, this is a document that informed Americans should be familiar with, as a basis for any future discussion about the costs and consequences of a "global war on terror" and about the maintenance of American "values" in the world. Through American history, there have been episodes of brutality and abuse that, in hindsight, span a very wide range of moral acceptability. There is no way to "understand" lynchings that makes them other than abominations. But -- to use the extreme case -- America's use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki will always be the subject of first-order moral debate, about whether any "larger good" (forcing an end to the war) could justify the immediate suffering, the decades-long aftereffects, and the crossing of the "first use" frontier that this decision represented. My point now is not to go through the A-bomb debate. It is to say that anyone who is serious in endorsing the A-bomb decision has to have fully faced the consequences. This is why John Hersey's Hiroshima was requisite basic knowledge for anyone arguing for or against the use of the bomb. The OPR report is essentially this era's Hiroshima. As Hersey's book does, it makes us confront what was done in our name -- "our" meaning the citizens of the United States. If you want to argue that "whatever" happened in the "war on terror" was necessary because of the magnitude and novelty of the threat, then you had better be willing to face what the "whatever" entailed. Which is what this report brings out. And if you believe -- as I do, and have argued through the years -- that what happened included excessive, abusive, lawless, immoral, and self-defeating acts done wrongly in the name of American "security," then this is a basic text as well. [...] To conclude the logical sequence, if not to resolve this issue (which will be debated past the time any of us are around), you should then read the recent memo by David Margolis, of the Justice Department, overruling the OPR's recommendation that Yoo and Bybee should be punished further. It is available as a 69-page PDF here[]. Margolis is a widely-esteemed voice of probity and professional excellence inside the Department. What is most striking to me as a lay reader is how much of his argument rests not on strictly legal judgments but rather on a historical/political assertion. [...] [] Linky: http://judiciary.hou...lReport090729.pdf Unfortunately, that version is a PDF image file, so it's not searchable. I don't know if a searchable PDF is available anywhere else. The comments about Yoo (PDF p.257-260) are damning and pull few punches. Bybee gets off easier, but seemingly only due to incompetence (PDF p.261-263). [] Linky: http://judiciary.hou...lisMemo100105.pdf (also a PDF image file) In the Margolis memo there's lots of mumbo-jumbo about a "known and unambiguous applicable standard". I haven't read it carefully, but it seems as if it was written to let Yoo and Bybee off the hook from the start. Perhaps that's appropriate, but it's unsatisfying. Fallows concludes: The "torture years" are now an indelible part of our history. The names Bybee and Yoo will always be associated with these policies. Whether you view them as patriots willing to do the dirty work of defending the nation -- the Dick Cheney view, the 24 view, which equates the torture memos with Abraham Lincoln's imposition of martial law -- or view them as damaging America's moral standing in ways that will take years to repair (my view), you owe it to yourself to read these original documents. I tried to make this point in more halting real-time fashion yesterday in a talk with Guy Raz on NPR.[] [**] Linky: http://www.npr.org/t...storyId=123928726 He said there that we should remember it took decades for the US to acknowledge and atone for the internment of citizens of Japanese decent during WWII. I hope it doesn't take as long in this case... Cheers, Scott.
Post #321,843 by mhuber 2/22/10 4:54:31 AM Reply	Death penalty is acceptable here Even in my religion. The Catholic Church is opposed to executions, except where the State is incapable of preventing a killer from killing again. The documents they produced sure look like conspiracy to torture. A conspiracy that resulted in people being killed. That is a death penalty crime under US law. Perhaps they think they are heroes, warriors in a clash of religions and cultures. But they are criminals. Like those other criminals who want to be seen as warriors, they deserve trials in Federal courts. Unlike those other criminals, these have powerful accomplices likely to release them so they can kill again. There is a moral reason to seek the death penalty - mere imprisonment will not stop them. They apparently did their alleged crimes knowing that innocent people would die horribly as a result. Just like those other guys. Unlike the other guys, they used the power of the US government and claimed to be acting for us. They dishonor us. They bring shame on the Republic. They couldn't befoul the flag more if they used it as toilet paper.
Post #321,849 by jake123 2/22/10 7:44:34 AM Reply	Using it as toilet paper would befoul it less. I sincerely hope that your reaction is a common one, Mike. Prosecution and punishment of those responsible is the only way that stain's going to come out, and everybody in the world knows that except for your press, and by extension, the US people. Not only that, it's pretty obvious that the ignorance on the part of the press is pretty much willful, and there's only so long before the world's going to have to assume that it's willful on the part of the US people too. When that time comes is when the US is really going to find out what it's like to be a falling power. You should be sure to tell everyone you know how you feel about it. Spread the word.
Post #321,852 by boxley 2/22/10 8:57:31 AM Reply	unfortunately the people supporting such memos were the same dweebs that had their heads repeatedly dunked into a toilet bowl at school. They associate waterboarding with that. most chickenhawks wouldnt know what to do in a firefight except plug their ears, holler lalalala and die quickly If we torture the data long enough, it will confess. (Ronald Coase, Nobel Prize for Economic Sciences, 1991)
Post #322,020 by Another Scott 2/25/10 9:59:37 AM Reply	Fallows has links to searchable PDFs. In here: http://jamesfallows...._margolis_sel.php Cheers, Scott.

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