Post #3,195
7/31/01 9:34:14 AM
|
Sun would let Java be Open-Source if it weren't for MSFT
Funny, the GPL is designed to protect the Open-Source community from unscrupulous companies like Microsoft from stealing and cutting off the air supply of the community. How much harm is Microsoft really causing the computing industry? More than we will ever know, unfortunately. Fortunately the tide is changing and now that Microsoft has been convicted of felony charges maybe the world will re-learn what we are taught in kindergarten: "Sharing is a good thing". Stealing other people's property is a bad thing (even if it makes your stock price go up).
[link|http://java.sun.com/features/2001/07/oscon01.html?frontpage-banner|MAY THE BEST CODE WIN]
Reaction to OSCON's Microsoft-Red Hat Debate
....
DC: Microsoft calls itself a "learning machine" -- they are just at the very beginning of learning what it is going to take to not antagonize the community to the point of deepening the issues between them. Where they are headed is not going to take them where they want to go.
The free software/open source community is a community of brilliant people who are tired of being jerked around. They just want to be able to write code and they want the best code to win. They still want to make money but they don't want to do it with inferior technology. They're artists and they are into the beauty of art. They think code is art. It is really clear that [Microsoft] doesn't get it yet.
I also got the impression that the free and open source communities are still having a hard time explaining their position to the suits.
JSC: How does JavaTM technology fit into all of this?
DC: Sun doesn't claim Sun's Community Source Licensing (SCSL) is open source, because we understand that it isn't. Our choices for Java technology were made to protect a technology from some well-known industry predators, and we have stated that we can see a day when it will be sufficiently unprofitable to write incompatible clones of Java technology. When that happens, we will be able to make it fully open source. We will open Java technology when it's possible for us to do so. We've said that before, and we're saying it now.
Danese Cooper, manager of Sun's Open Source Program Office
What we are hearing from Microsoft is rhetoric that amounts to "we've fixed open source," or "we have it so you can play in our space." They don't understand that what they are talking about is not open enough. They don't get it. And they don't get why. It is similar to their claim that they didn't understand why it wasn't OK to do what they did with Java technology.
When you lie down with a snake, you can't cry about getting bitten, because a snake is a snake by its nature. I'm not saying that Microsoft is bad people, I'm saying that the kind of business they have engaged in for so long has made it more of a challenge for them to make the switch, and they are not there yet. And I question whether or not they are ever going to be there.
|
Post #3,199
7/31/01 9:45:58 AM
|
It that was true
then why is OpenOffice open sourced, aren't they afraid that Microsoft would steal code from OpenOffice the same as an Open Sourced Java?
Or is Sun just wanting to control Java so badly that they do not want to Open Source it?
"I can see if I want anything done right around here, I'll have to do it myself!" Moe Howard
|
Post #3,305
7/31/01 5:41:13 PM
|
No
If that was true then why is OpenOffice open sourced, aren't they afraid that Microsoft would steal code from OpenOffice the same as an Open Sourced Java?
No, because they already have monopoly power in the office suite market. They don't perceive OpenOffice to be a threat, at least not yet. And don't forget, Microsoft controls the Office file formats. If OpenOffice starts to become a threat, they just change the Word file format, and the Excel file format, and suddenly OpenOffice isn't much of a threat anymore.
On the other hand, they've perceived Java as a threat for quite some time. There's no technical reason why they couldn't have supported JNI, but they chose not to specifically to make MS Java programs incompatible with the Sun JVM. Have you seen how many Visual J++ books Microsoft Press released? They worked very hard to pollute Java.
|
Post #3,202
7/31/01 9:56:41 AM
|
Sun is being thick-headed.
It may have been true a couple of years ago that Microsoft could've coopted Java if it was Open Source. But Sun is way behind the times. Sun won the legal battle and MS can not change Java to suit their needs. Instead of coopting Java from within, Microsoft has shifted all of its energy to .NET, the CLR and C#.
If Sun is still worried about MS changing Java, then I suggest they don't have a clue how MS intends to fight Java at this stage. Notice how C# has been handed to the standards committee. Notice how MS is dropping Java as a standard installed component. Instead of changing Java, MS is bent on replacing it, using multi-language support and open standards as the calling card.
I think it's high time that Sun got off its ass and open sourced Java. Continuing the anthems of years past just means that Sun doesn't have a clue where the battle lines have been drawn. They are still fighting WWI trench warfare, and just don't see the geopolotical nature of software standards in the modern arena.
|
Post #3,205
7/31/01 10:10:34 AM
|
How would that help?
I think it's high time that Sun got off its ass and open sourced Java.
Why?
Other than its "open source"?
Last night I downloaded IBM's 1.3 JDK for Linux. (to play with LimeWire). They specified the Sun JDK. Seems to run faster on the IBM JDK, and no problems.
I don't know what "open sourcing" Java would do for anybody, really. I don't think it would hurt Microsoft, and it wouldn't help Java. It *might*, but we're talking certainties, not perhapses.
I know we're all high on using open source products, but take a look at, oh, say, Mozilla. Open Sourced. Maybe a nice browser, but how far behind? Is it ever going to catch up and pass other browsers?
Maybe, but merely open sourcing Netscape didn't catapult it... I don't see that Java really has that many *problems*... Mainly because people who are using Java are going to keep using it, from what I've seen.
Addison
|
Post #3,311
7/31/01 7:10:02 PM
|
Couldn't hurt...
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
|
Post #3,326
7/31/01 9:53:25 PM
|
I suppose one could question...
...the value of taking Java to Open Source. The first point, though, is whether MS's efforts to pollute the language are the only reason why Java is not being opened up. I think Sun is fighting the battle on old grounds to suggest that MS mutilating the language is the reason why they can't do it.
Now, if Sun wants to argue there's no value in opening up Java, then let them make the case. Just stop trying to blame MS for it. MS no longer represents an internal threat to Java and the definition. It's decided to attack Java externally with no reliance on Sun technology.
As for reasons of opening up Java, the library is still a shambles in many respects. Swing and the rest of the Java desktop front pretty well bites. It's time to get some more help on the massive API's that Sun has laid out on the table.
And that's not to mention the possibility of using the JVM for languages other than Java - something Sun has resisted from the beginning.
|
