interesting, gore vidal is talking about the same things

Post #314,832 by boxley 9/30/09 12:33:44 PM Reply	interesting, gore vidal is talking about the same things http://women.timeson...rticle6854221.ece so they are floating it out to get us used to the idea?
Post #314,835 by beepster 9/30/09 12:45:12 PM Reply	Don't think so, but maybe But I'm with RC that this will probably hit mainstream instead of being relegated to the clear fringe that it is. Why? It will make great question fodder for the "gotcha" media...if someone says "no it won't happen" they can brand them as anti-military...if they give any credence at all to it they are anti-Obama (which makes them racist. naturally). I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #314,881 by rcareaga 9/30/09 10:17:04 PM Reply	You misunderstand I do not mean that the wicked liberal media will play "gotcha" with poor abused Newsmax. I mean that this will shortly come to seem like a subject on which reasonable people might reasonably disagree. You doubt this? At one time torture seemed an unambiguous evil. The bad guys did it and we didn't, and back in the day no one suggested that the line was blurry, or that there might be circumstances under which it was permitted to step across even a smudged boundary. Nope. But over the course of the Cheney Shogunate, our political discourse became debauched by degrees, advanced by just such initially outrageous salients, with evil increments creeping behind them. We may accordingly look forward to pieces in the Washington Post along the lines of "Military coups: Obviously not an optimal solution, but hasn't the Obama administration invited consideration of this option?" Then, The Newshour with Jim Lehrer: "Next up, Mark Shields and David Brooks on whether proponents of the armed overthrow of the Obama regime have been a little intemperate in their rhetoric, or whether a few leftist bloggers are just too thin-skinned." Just wait. cordially,
Post #314,885 by beepster 9/30/09 11:32:33 PM Reply	At the level you propose yes, I doubt it. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #314,886 by rcareaga 10/1/09 12:25:11 AM Reply	I hope you're right But eight years ago I'd never have believed that the "enhanced interrogation" goalposts would have been moved so far. But I daresay you didn't even notice that they'd drifted, did you?
Post #314,887 by beepster 10/1/09 12:51:01 AM Reply	I had no illusions or delusions that our folks on the dark (ops) side would not go to such levels. We did it in SE Asia in the 70s...we include it as training for all special ops before and after...the difference with the last crew was that it went public in a fairly brazen manner...with the VP response being something like "yeah we did, so?" which wasn't too comforting...and having lawyers try and craft opinions to make it all "legal like". Or do we actually think that Jack Bauer types are true works of fiction? I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #314,888 by rcareaga 10/1/09 1:50:21 AM Reply	distinctions, distinctions we include it as training for all special ops before and after It's included to prepare the "special ops" tough guys for things the bad guys might do to them. Are you such a "realist" that it makes no difference to you whether it's inflicted on volunteers or whether it's inflicted on "suspects?" I pity you, I really do—though not as much as I pity the victims of monsters in authority whose mindsets you parrot.
Post #314,918 by beepster 10/1/09 11:35:59 AM Reply	no... you're such an idealist that you seem to think that there aren't >bad< people in the employ of this >good< government. You're remaining leap of faith that I'm aligned with the thugs notwithstanding. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #314,923 by boxley 10/1/09 1:18:26 PM Reply	we is people just like the valiant canadians et al the politicians can look steely eyed at the cameras and swear it wont happen on their watch then appoint some golem to run black ops on the QT that would horrify the politician. Problem is that folks that get caught do time so when checey asked his golem to get busy, they said give that order to me in writing. That is the difference between today and folks before 2001 http://whatreallyhap...ICS/UN/peace.html Nor was the Belgian component of the UNÂs "Operation Restore Hope" uniquely barbarous. Three members of a now-disbanded elite Canadian paratroop regiment were tried and convicted of criminal charges in the beating death of a 16-year-old Somali boy named Shidane Arone; the three "peacekeepers" had been photographed smiling beside the bloody corpse of the boy, whose hands had been bound. The incident prompted the creation of a Canadian government commission to review that nationÂs military and its involvement in "peacekeeping" missions; however, the inquiry foundered on the obstructionism of political and military bodies and produced what Canadian critics call an incomplete and inadequate report.
Post #314,928 by jake123 10/1/09 2:25:24 PM Reply	Oh wait, what's the difference there There were no orders to do that. The people that did it went to jail, except for the guy who tried to hang himself and brain-damaged himself so badly that he is to all intents and purposes a toddler. The colonel in charge of the regiment was cashiered for the obvious and terrible breakdown in discipline in his regiment. The regiment itself was disbanded; despite it's storied history, the murder of Arone was considered such a vile and ignominious act and indicative of an absolute breakdown of discipline that the only solution was to destroy the regiment and break up the people in it. It'd be nice if the person you quote provided a link to the report, and named the people who called it incomplete and inadequate. Here's some more info about that: http://hrsbstaff.edn...omalia_affair.htm http://epe.lac-bac.g.../issue-2/0244.htm http://epe.lac-bac.g.../issue-2/0244.htm Wikipedia has a pretty good overview of all that: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Somalia_Affair
Post #314,929 by boxley 10/1/09 2:31:19 PM Reply	thanks for making my point :-) prior to cheney there was no orders, and if caught off to jail you go. Politicians did not want to know
Post #314,930 by beepster 10/1/09 2:36:59 PM Reply	Not so sure about that either more likely it was that it just wasn't being caught http://www.princeton...no2/32mandic.html I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill.
Post #314,894 by Another Scott 10/1/09 6:34:17 AM Reply	Hmm... http://findarticles....7_v88/ai_6742034/ [...] The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today. The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution. [...] - RONALD REAGAN, MAY 20, 1988. Sorry, but I don't think only the level of brazen-ness changed with Bush/Cheney. Cheers, Scott.
Post #314,901 by boxley 10/1/09 9:09:32 AM Reply	who was HIS veep, plausible deniability in play
Post #314,842 by jay 9/30/09 1:13:28 PM Reply	More likely seeing the obvious potential There is a radical right that hates Obama as much as the radical left hated Bush Jr. In both cases there was an intense hope that something would happen and the office of the President would be opened to a 'legitimate' person. The difference is that the radical left are mostly anti-gun, anti-violence and anti-military, the best they could do was hope that Bush would choke on a pretzel. The radical right has no such problems, and a lot of fascist fantasies, many would applaud a violent military takeover of the US. Jay
Post #314,844 by boxley 9/30/09 1:40:31 PM 9/30/09 1:41:32 PM Reply	thats rather misguided (added link) Once you get to the right fringe you get more snake than malloy http://texasfred.net/archives/3814 Edited by boxley Sept. 30, 2009, 01:41:32 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #314,846 by mhuber 9/30/09 2:03:16 PM Reply	If that had been written 18 months ago... it would have made more sense, but it would have been a commie plot.
Post #314,847 by boxley 9/30/09 2:04:02 PM Reply	its been around for a while and growing

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