IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 1 active user | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Bill Gates bails out of ethanol w/$24 million loss.
Gate's firm Cascade Investments had put US $84 million into Pacific Ethanol Inc. but decided to sell out for $60 million.

Further evidence the ethanol boom is collapsing.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Prime example of government mandate distorting the market
The US government has put a lot of money in corn->ethanol production. That is one of the worst ways to make ethanol and no money was put into distribution only into production.

The end result is rising food prices due to corn being redirected into ethanol and ethanol prices collapsing because production is outstripping demand and distribution.

Jay
New But Archer-Daniels-McMills loves it.
New Which ADM do you mean?
Archer-Daniels-Midland?

If you are talking about the one that is competitors of:

Cargill and A.E. Staley

Then no, yours is incorrect.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
PGP key: 1024D/B524687C 2003-08-05
Fingerprint: E1D3 E3D7 5850 957E FED0  2B3A ED66 6971 B524 687C
Alternate Fingerprint: 09F9 1102 9D74  E35B D841 56C5 6356 88C0
Alternate Fingerprint: 455F E104 22CA  29C4 933F 9505 2B79 2AB2
New It's Always Danged Microsoft, of course.
[link|http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=006978452673906630972%3A_5xhnlvpsn4|IWeThey Custom Search Engine]
New Cute :-)
Smile,
Amy
New Re: Which ADM do you mean?
Sorry, it was Midland...I just didn't want to go look it up.

ADM love ethanol not for the value of turning it to gas...but rather it makes corn more scarce. And if you're trying to compete against ADM in ethanol....when ADM is planning on making their profits in corn rather than ethanol...you're in a losing battle.

(Battling ethanol with sugarcane might be a valid option...'cept you'd be fighting subsidies from Congress.)
New A Bloomberg story on it.
[link|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azYO_2glG5vk&refer=worldwide|Bloomberg]:

The biggest producer, Archer Daniels Midland Co., may resort to exporting ethanol. Pacific Ethanol Inc., backed by Microsoft Corp. co-founder Bill Gates, dropped 70 percent in New York trading this year as profits collapsed. Record oil prices, which make blending of ethanol with gasoline more profitable for refiners, haven't stemmed the declines.

``Ethanol companies are near break-even at best,'' says Ron Oster, a principal at Broadpoint Capital Inc. in Albany, New York. ``That's not a good recipe when you have $100 oil.''

[...]

Scientists question the wisdom of using ethanol. Stanford University researchers say ethanol, originally added to gasoline in the 1970s to reduce tailpipe emissions, does nothing to improve the environment.

``It takes more energy to produce ethanol than it actually gives off,'' says David Pimentel, a Cornell University professor who has studied production of the fuel for two decades.

Ethanol is a form of alcohol indistinguishable from moonshine that's created by fermenting and distilling the starches from corn, sugar, wheat and other crops. Harvesting, crushing, fermenting and distilling corn requires 29 percent more energy than ethanol produces, says Pimentel, a professor of ecology and agriculture.

Energy Gain

Michael Wang, an environmental engineer at the Argonne National Laboratory outside Chicago, says Pimentel is wrong to include energy spent on making fertilizers and pesticides. Ethanol production results in a 33 percent gain in combustible energy, Wang says.

[Why not???]

[...]

Help From Washington

U.S. distillers' best hope for a recovery rests with attempts by farm-state lawmakers to increase the amount of ethanol in gasoline, Berg says.

Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives and Senate are negotiating on whether a final energy bill should include a Senate plan to increase the so-called renewable fuels mandate to 36 billion gallons a year, more than five times the amount produced now by all 131 U.S. mills.

``Long-term prospects for the industry depend very much on whether a new energy bill requires higher blending targets,'' Berg says. ``Any increase in the mandate would give a psychological lift to the ethanol market.''

Almost one-quarter of the $33.8 billion corn crop is devoted to ethanol, causing food companies to raise prices for tortillas, meat and soda-pop made from corn-based ingredients. Land prices climbed 13 percent in the central U.S. during the second quarter, the biggest increase in at least 27 years, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City.

[...]


There's a lot more there.

[link|http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=74780|This] story gives a few more details on Wang's reasoning:

According to studies performed by Michael Wang at Argonne National Laboratory, one unit of energy output from gasoline requires 1.2 units of energy input when all aspects of gasoline production are taken into account.

One unit of energy output from corn ethanol, on the other hand, only requires .74 units of energy input. Sugarcane ethanol is about four times as efficient as corn ethanol.


(Emphasis added.)

I'm not sure I buy that, either. It certainly seems counter-intuitive that it's more efficient to do all that work to grow grain, break it down, and process it into ethanol than to crack petroleum.

Cheers,
Scott.
[link|http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=006978452673906630972%3A_5xhnlvpsn4|IWeThey Custom Search Engine]
New There's a certain amount of logic there...
If you're including pesticide and fertilizer production costs, then you would need to include the costs to extract the petroleum from the ground as well in the cost to produce gasoline.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You saying that *isn't* included already???
New I don't know that it is or is not.
I'm just stating what the baseline should be.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Ah. Yes, of course. (Darn well *should* be already, though.)
     Bill Gates bails out of ethanol w/$24 million loss. - (Andrew Grygus) - (11)
         Prime example of government mandate distorting the market - (JayMehaffey) - (5)
             But Archer-Daniels-McMills loves it. -NT - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                 Which ADM do you mean? - (folkert) - (3)
                     It's Always Danged Microsoft, of course. -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Cute :-) -NT - (imqwerky)
                     Re: Which ADM do you mean? - (Simon_Jester)
         A Bloomberg story on it. - (Another Scott) - (4)
             There's a certain amount of logic there... - (admin) - (3)
                 You saying that *isn't* included already??? -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                     I don't know that it is or is not. - (admin) - (1)
                         Ah. Yes, of course. (Darn well *should* be already, though.) -NT - (CRConrad)

Dude...
164 ms