You seem to be ignoring a major point.

Post #293,394 by hnick 9/22/07 9:17:42 AM Reply	You seem to be ignoring a major point. The Repos keep smearing the Dems with media they or their supporters own, with "think tanks" that their supporters fund, and with ad hoc "swift boat" type orgs. And they piously say "that's just the freedom of speech of others... we didn't say that." The Dems NEED similar capability. This is not the "somebody else did it so this time it's ok" defense. The Dems need media weapons and the Reps have proved that this model works. Simply nasty tactics in a nasty place. How else can you undo lionization of a military figure by the opposition's noise machine? Think of this as an inept pussyfication* attempt. It could have been done better, but at least somebody tried. You also seem to be hung up on the poor general. If he rose to that rank in Rumsfeld's army, he's a political yes man. Rumsfeld ran off most of the decent leadership in the last six years. He's in front of congress to pimp Bush's latest fantasy and if he doesn't do it to Bush's expectations, he's fired. A political shill is a fair target. The good general gave up his honor to be Bush's butt boy. He has nothing left but the lecture circuit once he's out. His choice. As you say, he's been around long enough to know how the game is played. And conflating picking on a political stooge with disrespecting the troops is a blatant strawman. But you knew that... *CRC: I made the word up. Please don't spell check it.
Post #293,407 by bepatient 9/22/07 11:54:44 AM Reply	No I'm not I have no problems with the printing of the ad. They can do that all they want. It is a free country. Its their money. Its the reaction (or lack thereof)by the candidates that aspire to be CIC and the impression that that reaction should leave on 1)the people that will be in their charge and 2) the people that will do the voting. Yes, this is alot of media crap about a legal act by an org that skirts the campaign finance laws. What I see this as is another Democratic candidate making it EASY on the opposition to leave a bad impression in the mouths of the voters. Here we go, self destructing again. If you >really< want to get Republicans out of office then you really DON'T want help like this. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,420 by Seamus 9/22/07 12:48:49 PM Reply	But you also said that Sen. Clinton couldn't be bother to vote, was on the fence. But, she did vote for the democratic version of the censure, just not the republican version. You also said the repo spin machine had it right. If they had it right they would have said that they vehemently disagree with the message, but they and the military defend the right of group's like moveon.org to make those statements. It was a gamble on the part of moveon.org to go with the ad. I am not sure if it is going to hurt the democrats more than help them. Seamus
Post #293,422 by bepatient 9/22/07 1:03:40 PM Reply	What I'd seen was that she did not vote on the Boxer and voted NO on the other. [link\|http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00343\|That appears to be incorrect]. In which case all she needs to do to get rid of this, and I'm sure she will, is to say she voted yes to the Boxer resolution. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,424 by Seamus 9/22/07 1:31:20 PM Reply	Just curious, where did you see that? Seamus
Post #293,425 by bepatient 9/22/07 1:47:10 PM Reply	Gonna have to get my laptop back from my daughter and check the history. I was trying to stay with fairly reputable sites. The one I saw the most conflicting reports on was Obama. Ah well. It was fun anyway. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #293,474 by Simon_Jester 9/23/07 12:31:40 PM Reply	Are you KIDDING me? In which case all she needs to do to get rid of this, and I'm sure she will, is to say she voted yes to the Boxer resolution. We've got an ENTIRE thread here because someone stated "Clinton stood silently by when MoveOn.org ran this venomous ad in the New York Times"....(3 guess who that person was). You think anyone is going to point out the entire thing was a lie? (I'm sure FOX news will jump on it any time now).
Post #293,480 by bepatient 9/23/07 4:20:49 PM 9/23/07 4:21:36 PM Reply	She hasn't yet. and I wouldn't put faith in the party machine to get it right. They haven't done too well the past couple of tries. Post edit...my 2 main sources of online news are cnn and msnbc. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient Sept. 23, 2007, 04:21:36 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #293,409 by Simon_Jester 9/22/07 12:01:35 PM Reply	Actually he's not He's saying that Hillary (and Obama) should've denounced "political advertising by outside groups", just like Bush did (regarding the Swiftboat ads). Doesn't mean the ads stop. Doesn't mean the politicans don't give it down thumb with a secret smirk. The ads continue (and get worse...but they're not 'backed' by the politicans....honest).
Post #293,416 by hnick 9/22/07 12:21:00 PM Reply	All right. Difference of opinion is all. Bush denouncing political advertising by outside groups is about as truthful as any other statement he's made. He's either lying out his ass or ignorant from living in a bubble. I, personally would prefer that my representatives would do a bit better. The moveon ploy was stupid and self defeating. They (Clinton and Obama) could have distanced themselves by saying that the outside guys were not speaking on their behalf, but I still think that condemning somebody else's first amendment rights is over the top. As filthy as this race is going to get, I can't muster much outrage over this simple stupidity. Sorry.
Post #293,473 by Simon_Jester 9/23/07 12:19:55 PM Reply	Nor can I politically speaking, it probably would've been smart for them to denounce it like Bush did. (All wink and nod) -- but then they would've just been playing at the Republican level. I'm not sure they can win if they don't play at the Republican level, but at least they didn't decide to stoop to that level. <Shrug>

Welcome to IWETHEY!