Post #291,061
8/17/07 8:17:27 PM
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Having had many conversations with customs officials
going back and forth through jfk during my youth, while there wasn't an official practice in place, this is how most people end up caught.
The simple statement by the most blunt of the officials was something to the tune of "we can tell there's something fishy as soon as they turn the corner". And judging from some of the things I've seen them unearth (bad luck in picking lines on my part), I'd say they're pretty good at it.
Not that it makes this official practice any better...but it really is simply a codification of diligent observation. The problem as I see it is that they think they can teach it to a bunch of min wage hacks that get hired to work security by TSA.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #291,066
8/17/07 10:55:33 PM
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Yeah.
And I know just how accurate that crap is.
Remember my 'buddy' back at school? And why I had to sneak home after dark when I came back late? (not that I was that successful)
Now, it's codified that if you look guilty, you are guilty - and remember how many people actually believe that 'cops' only harass the guilty...
This truly disturbs me.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #291,068
8/17/07 11:16:10 PM
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Point is...
..its not something that is new. Maybe has a cute new name and a reporter blew it into a great sensational story...but observation (which is ALL that this is) is an important part of surveillance and detection.
It would be WONDERFUL if we lived in a world where there were no bad people needing to be detected.
We don't.
There will ALWAYS be abuses. The ex-military WV cops were jerks...and our one favorite did absolutely have a bug up his butt...
but really, how are you supposed to detect bad things if you aren't allowed to look for them?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #291,072
8/18/07 5:40:19 AM
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Another employer of this seecrut clever method
called Attention + 'observation' was some guy called Holmes. But he daid.
'Course, as with the missing wise-men, historians, Statesmen etc. - for current teachers and their students? ersatz is all we can count on.
(And No Chance ever, of getting your name off the lists, once a neophyte with upset stomach escalates Your bad mood / re. Your thoughts-of-a-bad-boss -- to whatever Atrocity is fancied.)
What was that Spaceballs term? umm yes-
We have now exceeded Ludicrous Speed
(It's been impeachment time since when we were travelling towards that tungsten carbide wall, merely at light-speed.)
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Post #291,084
8/18/07 11:56:16 AM
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Not true
though not as easy as it should be...you can get your name off the lists.
My peeps have done it. (I have peeps for things like that).
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #291,146
8/19/07 4:49:18 PM
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Well...probable cause helps...
And how do you get probable cause? Good, ol'-fashioned poleece work. You know, that difficult, nasty, not-gonna-find-its-way-ont-LawnOrder-cuz-it-aint-sexy-and-requires-more-than-a-3yo's-attention-span stuff. The stuff that was outlawed here after 9/12/01.
jb4
"It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment."
— George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
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Post #291,089
8/18/07 1:10:10 PM
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Isn't mass deployment automatically doomed?
I imagine the pilot schemes grabbed all the available ex-policemen and ex-customs officers in the area, who are graduates of criminology courses, have practical experience of undercover questioning, know the use and limitations of observation and that terrorists are rare. They know the public resentment of too many false positives and mostly pull in drug mules and gun toters. This is not new and just an extension of existing procedures.
What's new is trying to make this a scaled-up, nationwide deployment. How many talented, ex-policemen do you think are left? A bunch of min wage hacks, as you say. In the same way that only the talented should be allowed near a microphone, only the talented should be allowed to observe and detain. Therefore, isn't the TSA automatically creating a scaled-up, nationwide disaster that can't be fixed? Isn't this a doomed idea from the start?
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #291,091
8/18/07 1:43:14 PM
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I believe that was my point
Its not "automatic"...but darned close.
If they kept the specialists and focused on the top 10 int'l airports...they might be able to pull it off...but they'll probably put the best ones in Salina Ks airport.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #291,093
8/18/07 2:44:58 PM
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Some of the 9/11 folks started off in Portland, Maine.
Those who seek to do premeditated harm will almost always attack through weaknesses in the system. Concentrating on the big-10 airports won't be very effective in increasing the security of the system as a whole. It's a tough problem (see below), but treating everyone as a potential suspect isn't going to make the system safer at an acceptable cost. I'm not advocating profiling - I'm advocating real methods that increase system security (many of which have already been implemented - stronger cabin doors, agents on planes, etc.). Basically, by the time the "evil-doers" are at the airport, it's too late (as illustrated by the recent events in [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6257194.stm|Glasgow]). Physical security at airports is important, but attempting to divine intentions of people in a queue there is far too late in the process. [link|http://www.addictinggames.com/airportsecurity.html|Airport Security] Shockwave game. :-/ Of course, [link|http://www.schneier.com/essay-163.html|data mining has lots of problems], too: [...]
Used properly, data mining is a great tool. As a result of data mining, AT&T reduces the costs of cell phone fraud, Amazon.com shows me books I might want to buy, and Google shows me advertising I'm more likely to be interested in. But it only works when there's (1) a reasonable percentage of attacks per year, (2) a well-defined profile to search for, and (3) and a low cost of false alarms.
[...]
Terrorist plots are different. First, attacks are very rare. This means that even very accurate systems will be so flooded with false alarms that they will be useless: millions of false alarms for every one real attack, even assuming unrealistically accurate systems.
Let's look at some numbers. Assume an unrealistically optimistic system with a 1-in-100 false positive rate (99% accurate), and a 1-in-1,000 false negative rate (99.9% accurate). That is, while it will mistakenly classify something innocent as a terrorist plot one in a hundred times, it will only miss a real terrorist plot one in a thousand times. Assume one billion possible "plots" to sift through per year, about four per American citizen, and that there is one actual terrorist plot per year.
Even this unrealistically accurate system will generate 10 million false alarms for every real terrorist plot it uncovers. Every day of every year, the police will have to investigate 270,000 potential plots in order to find the one real terrorist plot per month.
[...] FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #291,092
8/18/07 2:34:27 PM
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just sweep some mid level drug dealers off the street
and put them to work, they can smell a wrong un a mile away :-)
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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