Post #286,614
6/9/07 6:05:18 PM
6/10/07 6:40:33 PM
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Bullsh*t
anyone who advocates anything
That was your strawman definition
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=286456|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=286456]
You/he promote the environment, purposefully ignoring flaws, because it benefits you.
Key: purposefully ignoring flaws,
I advocate lots of things, things that help me do my job or make my life easier. Any information someone wants to give me concerning flaws will be taken into account in the decision to continue to use (or not) the thing that I am currently advocating. Because I have choices. Tomorrow I could start using a competing product. I WANT to know (and possibly debate) the flaws. To get more info and to make better decisions.
I would expect any technical person to have the same attitude concerning any technology that they work with, except people who work for technical companies that sell technology. I would expect that person to act as a salesperson (as Andrew and others pointed out).
Note: They are still shilling for their company, it just is a bit more honest and aboveboard (if that is even possible).
You, on the other hand, do not have any apparent financial goal when ignoring or refusing to discuss flaws in your favorite environment. It's not like you get paid when more MS crap is sold.
Except for the general aspect of it keeping you employable. You've tied your fortunes to a particular bit of technology, controlled by a specific company, and push it whenever possible. Fine. Reasonable for someone who has painted themselves in a corner. You have no choice to use alternatives in your current job, and moving to any other job that doesn't use your exact technology would probably mean a signficant pay cut. People are paid on experience.
As I pointed it out before, that attitude is poison to the companies consuming the technology. And it is in your best interest to spread the poison.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=278535|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=278535]
You are in a group of people (this board), most of which have deep technical backgrounds. You present a tiny minority viewpoint for a reason. Telling me I pander to the board is like telling me that when I say oxygen is good, I'm pandering to those damn breathers.
Edited by crazy
June 9, 2007, 06:51:19 PM EDT
Bullsh*t
anyone who advocates anything
That was your strawman definition
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=286456|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=286456]
You/he promote the environment, purposefully ignoring flaws, because it benefits you.
Key: purposefully ignoring flaws,
I advocate lots of things, things that help me do my job or make my life easier. Any information someone wants to give me concerning flaws will be taken into account in the decision to continue to use (or not) the thing that I am currently advocating. Because I have choices. Tomorrow I could start using a competing product. I WANT to know (and possibly debate) the flaws. To get more info and to make better decisions.
I would expect any technical person to have the same attitude concerning any technology that they work with, except people who work for technical companies that sell technology. I would expect that person to act as a salesperson (as Andrew and others pointed out).
Note: They are still shilling for their company, it just is a bit more honest and aboveboard (if that is even possible).
You, on the other hand, do not have any apparent financial goal when ignoring or refusing to discuss flaws in your favorite environment. It's not like you get payed when more MS crap is sold.
Except for the general aspect of it keeping you employable. You've tied your fortunes to a particular bit of technology, controlled by a specific company, and push it whenever possible. Fine. Reasonable for someone who has painted themselves in a corner. You have no choice to use alternatives in your current job, and moving to any other job that doesn't use your exact technology would probably mean a signficant pay cut. People are payed on experience.
As I pointed it out before, that attitude is poison to the companies consuming the technology. And it is in your best interest to spread the poison.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=278535|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=278535]
You are in a group of people (this board), most of which have deep technical backgrounds. You present a tiny minority viewpoint for a reason. Telling me I pander to the board is like telling me that when I say oxygen is good, I'm pandering to those damn breathers.
Edited by crazy
June 10, 2007, 06:40:33 PM EDT
Bullsh*t
anyone who advocates anything
That was your strawman definition
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=286456|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=286456]
You/he promote the environment, purposefully ignoring flaws, because it benefits you.
Key: purposefully ignoring flaws,
I advocate lots of things, things that help me do my job or make my life easier. Any information someone wants to give me concerning flaws will be taken into account in the decision to continue to use (or not) the thing that I am currently advocating. Because I have choices. Tomorrow I could start using a competing product. I WANT to know (and possibly debate) the flaws. To get more info and to make better decisions.
I would expect any technical person to have the same attitude concerning any technology that they work with, except people who work for technical companies that sell technology. I would expect that person to act as a salesperson (as Andrew and others pointed out).
Note: They are still shilling for their company, it just is a bit more honest and aboveboard (if that is even possible).
You, on the other hand, do not have any apparent financial goal when ignoring or refusing to discuss flaws in your favorite environment. It's not like you get paid when more MS crap is sold.
Except for the general aspect of it keeping you employable. You've tied your fortunes to a particular bit of technology, controlled by a specific company, and push it whenever possible. Fine. Reasonable for someone who has painted themselves in a corner. You have no choice to use alternatives in your current job, and moving to any other job that doesn't use your exact technology would probably mean a signficant pay cut. People are payed on experience.
As I pointed it out before, that attitude is poison to the companies consuming the technology. And it is in your best interest to spread the poison.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=278535|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=278535]
You are in a group of people (this board), most of which have deep technical backgrounds. You present a tiny minority viewpoint for a reason. Telling me I pander to the board is like telling me that when I say oxygen is good, I'm pandering to those damn breathers.
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Post #286,616
6/9/07 6:15:42 PM
6/10/07 2:48:56 PM
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"Paid", sic. HTH! (That goes for all people. :-)
Edited by CRConrad
June 10, 2007, 02:48:56 PM EDT
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Post #286,619
6/9/07 7:02:55 PM
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Don't be so hard on him.
Papa Andy provides useful information here. It's not like he's [link|http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=2ujkthgAAAAbjK_xxk9lbKscyQkwtL0ywucTIxwOqukVKKQJDX9t2Q|Dale Ross] or something.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #286,631
6/9/07 9:21:10 PM
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nit, if he doesnt have much exposure outside of his
environment, and all he learns is force fed from his environment then its rather dificult to relate tech issues that he doesnt either
a> have familiararity with
b> can supply only the answer which matches the purveyors of this "fine" system
Kinda like coming to me on matters of Suomi drinking habits, other than morose and wanting to kill russians the only other thing I know is that they drink enough for our little buddy to get a woman in the land of the tall, skinny and fair haired.
thanx,
bill
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #286,633
6/9/07 9:51:50 PM
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nit not accepted
He'd an adult, a professional, with many years in the workforce.
I'll assume he's literate - he certainly can rip apart my poor prose and run around the web, finding definitions to match what he wants.
The alternative software is almost all free, the equipment required to run it cheap, and it's not like he spends a lot of time keeping up on the latest trends in MS networking software. Something tells me he's got plenty of chance to learn, and it is in the news on tech sites for the last (hmm...) 8 years (or so).
So he's either capable of learning about the alternatives which he's chosen to either simply ignore or actively fight against, or he's incompetent, which means it really doesn't matter what he has to say on the matter.
Almost every pro-MS person I've known for the last 10 years, who spent a little bit of time comparing the open source alternatives, came to understand that while they may not find the answers to their prayers in open source, they should always at least try to educate themselves about it and keep an open mind. Whew. Breathe.
The very few who didn't were deeply embedded consultants who would lose their cash cows if open source was utlitized.
The remaining ones "who couldn't be bothered" were idiot PHBs who failed upward and thought they knew tech. But they didn't. They were usually being manipulated by the embedded consultants.
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Post #286,636
6/9/07 10:52:59 PM
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Re: Bullsh*t
to act as a spokesperson or promoter
this is the definition you supplied from your source
my conclusion that this means anyone who advocates anything follows
logically from that
the word 'paid' never entered your definition
as I stated earlier this is not the definition that people actually use
this includes you as shown by your recent responses
I don't think that you're so 'crazy' that you don't realize this
What really irks you is my attitude toward MS
yet your attitude toward open source does not antagonize me
Is this forum some sort of 'self-help' group where until an individual makes
certain addmissions they can't be accepted ("Hi, my name is Andy and I'm a ...")
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://westcottradio.org|Tune In]
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Post #286,641
6/9/07 11:23:49 PM
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Nice try
As you pointed out, there is a negative connotation.
Mere advocating isn't enough.
The negative aspect is because shills present a trustworthy side, a side that people see as a competent or safe. While their goal is to push a particular viewpoint or product, that is not the focus of the conversation. So then it becomes it becomes issue of trust betrayed.
So starting out with an imagined a, and then saying a=b, b=c, so therefore c=a doesn't really do a lot for you. No matter how many words you want to put in my mouse (or type from my hands). The history is clear to read.
What really irks you is my attitude toward MS
Nope. Your hit and run postings that start out as a straight forward observation that is single sided. Because you are single sided. So when someone posts a competing viewpoint you dismiss it with a wave of your hand.
"These are not the droids you are looking for"
Except it doesn't work.
I also do see others go a bit rabid on the "He's shill! - Kill Him!" mode, which goes a bit above and beyond. I don't want that. I merely want you to learn enough about the alternatives that are out there so when someone does do an alternative post, you can engage.
Because at that moment, you might post something about the MS environment I'm forced to work in, and it might end up helping me.
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Post #286,752
6/11/07 12:04:48 PM
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Re: Nice try
I'm glad to find you in a more conciliatory mood
but I'm really not sure what you're looking for
The post that began this discussion was from me
I noted that 2 of my 3 Vista installs had succeeded
the one that failed was the one done by the recommended MS method
this morphed into a discussion of UAC which I believed (and believe) that several of the posters did not understand how it works for non-admin users
then the 'inevitable' shill thing came up and here we are
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://westcottradio.org|Tune In]
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Post #286,759
6/11/07 12:27:52 PM
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The passing point..
...where your argument and the others seemed to "pass like ships in the night" was in the qualifier of "non-admin users".
In a locked down corp environment I think we all understand that there are things lowly users will not be able to do, like remove or disable UAC. HOWEVER, this doesn't represent most users...since they are home machines where the main user is also the admin.
As for the definition of shill, I haven't been convinced to change my perception of the word, which still aligns largely with yours.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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