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New As you said, the church is the people...
. . in those who seek it - they are the wrong ones to entrust it to.


I have to agree here, I think he has done something here that is akin to a hostile takeover of a company. The only thing in our favor is that he doesn't OWN the church building or the people in it.

He and his wife seek control of a "church", but they can not control it. "Here is the church and here is the steeple, open the doors and see all the people."


I concur, he seems to be losing more and more control of the core members as we speak. They are seeing what is happening and are taking a step back to think about it more.

Only one thing actually constitutes a church and that is the people. It is your tradition, surely you have not forgotten, as Christians to meet in houses or gardens and wherever you are a community. "Any that gather in my name . . . ".


Yep, and the original members that made up our church would be those people.

So if he wants the "church", let him have it - let him grasp an empty shell that crumbles in his hands. It isn't really something worth fighting over. If some stay with him in the shell it is because they do not understand, or do not wish to understand their own church and their own religion.


In some ways I agree with you here, since it seems to mirror one of the council member's comments, "If he wants it all, let him have it all, and we can all go on strike and do nothing. Then let's see how that goes over when they have to handle every duty on their own with none of the members lifting a finger." That would be more like giving them all the duties, since we certainly can't give them the people who are the "church"

I didn't exactly go on "strike" with my sabbatical, but I did leave them in the position of having to get information to the music department and the bulletin maker without going through me... and it's Thursday night and there are still no songs sent to the person who makes the bulletin OR given to the other persons who play the music besides the pastor's wife.

But in other ways I can't agree, in the sense of giving them the "building". I learned from one of the core members who explained to me that the elders hired this pastor and they have the power to fire him as well, if he is not meeting the needs of the congregation or doing things in the best interest of the congregation. And it was their church first, so if they have the power to remove him, rather than surrender their building to him, shouldn't they do that? I have no voice in this, well other than an opinion, because as a non-official member, I have no actual vote. So whatever they do, they will do, and I can only influence it by opinion.

I guess we wait and see if the sheep take back their "church" from the wolf. But my burning question still remains... should I have seen that he was a "wolf in sheep's clothing" sooner? Is it my fault I was possibly "used" to gain a foothold with the congregation's trust?

Had I not assisted him at the start, maybe he would have fallen flat on his face and all the inadaquacies and problems that are now evident might have come out sooner... but I was working towards the good of the church, and the good of the church meant having things run smoothly enough so that I and the rest of the music department were able to do our jobs.

Hard call, and I'm still not sure I made the right one.

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 12:43:54 AM EDT
New Oh, I didn't mean he should be given . . .
. . anything he doesn't own. The building is not his, but he has been put in charge it's use. If the people pull back, that use will be hollow, a shell. He will either leave it, or be thrown out of it.

I see no blame on your part. Some people make their living by deception and they are good at it. You were not looking to be deceived, you were working with a person placed in a position of trust and who presumably had been judged worthy of that trust. You performed your role honorably for as long as you could. It was not you who failed here.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Thank you, I needed to hear that!
Oh, I didn't mean he should be given anything he doesn't own. The building is not his, but he has been put in charge it's use. If the people pull back, that use will be hollow, a shell. He will either leave it, or be thrown out of it.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. :) So the "strike" is in effect, the same thing then.

I see no blame on your part. Some people make their living by deception and they are good at it. You were not looking to be deceived, you were working with a person placed in a position of trust and who presumably had been judged worthy of that trust. You performed your role honorably for as long as you could. It was not you who failed here.


I learned this evening from someone else that he favors himself as an "actor" and loves to act. He has often "acted out" roles in sermons as Biblical characters...and I can see how easily someone who is so capable of "acting" could "act" in a manner to deceive and be undetectable at it.

I figured if anyone could tell me whether I was to blame here, it would be you all at IWT... and I was correct. Thank you Andrew, for your assessment of things, it really has eased my mind. :)

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 01:31:04 AM EDT
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 01:32:36 AM EDT
New It sounds like he's misunderstood his authority.
Clearly that needs to be brought home to him and I really doubt you're in the position to do it. But it appears that those that are know they have to act.

You did right, IMO. You stood up to his manipulation and declined to be a part of it.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New what he needs is an empty collection plate day
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
     And the sheep are revolting... - (Nightowl) - (50)
         Power should never be vested . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
             Nor sweatered, for that matter. - (admin)
             As you said, the church is the people... - (Nightowl) - (4)
                 Oh, I didn't mean he should be given . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                     Thank you, I needed to hear that! - (Nightowl) - (1)
                         It sounds like he's misunderstood his authority. - (static)
                 what he needs is an empty collection plate day -NT - (boxley)
         The alternative would be worse - (warmachine)
         Major Update -- it's getting personal - (Nightowl) - (39)
             thats why I dont attend a regular place of worship - (boxley)
             You need not explain anything to anyone. - (Andrew Grygus)
             Maybe you should check out the Quakers - (Seamus)
             Time to find a new church - (JayMehaffey) - (6)
                 Been thinking along that line too. - (Nightowl) - (5)
                     Don't think. Do. - (bepatient) - (4)
                         Concur - (jbrabeck)
                         Re: Don't think. Do. - (Nightowl) - (2)
                             What they did. >that< activity. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 Ah got it now. Thanks. -NT - (Nightowl)
             What does John think? - (Another Scott) - (23)
                 Re: What does John think? - (Nightowl) - (22)
                     You do need to re-engineer your role. - (static) - (21)
                         I've never been to a business meeting - (Nightowl) - (20)
                             Some clues, perhaps. - (static) - (19)
                                 for F**K sakes!!! - (boxley) - (18)
                                     Oh, stop that! - (Andrew Grygus)
                                     I find myself in utter agreement w/box -NT - (rcareaga)
                                     Interesting analogy... - (Nightowl)
                                     And who are you to instruct me thus? - (static) - (14)
                                         no personal disrespect intended but the following sentence - (boxley) - (13)
                                             I think your research falls short, my friend. - (static) - (12)
                                                 well I have 2 brothers who're licensed pentacostal ministers - (boxley) - (1)
                                                     Human nature et al. - (static)
                                                 Oh, come now, static - (rcareaga) - (9)
                                                     well actually I dont doubt his perceived communication from - (boxley) - (7)
                                                         I think we agree on something... - (static) - (6)
                                                             The Prime Directive, nevertheless remains - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                 In other words... - (static) - (1)
                                                                     Sounds about right - - (Ashton)
                                                                 look here brother, who you jiving with that cosmik debris? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho? -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                 "The name that can be named is not the eternal name." - (mmoffitt)
                                                     I think you might have missed it, too. - (static)
             Time for a new religion. - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 Hehe, well I was thinking more of the lines of... - (Nightowl) - (3)
                     That's just Canadian -NT - (tuberculosis)
                     Brenda...That's the best reply I've ever heard from you - (jb4) - (1)
                         Thanks, JB. :) -NT - (Nightowl)
         Do Brenda's panic attacks - (rcareaga) - (1)
             Re: Do Brenda's panic attacks - (Nightowl)

I say, I say that was a JOKE, son! A joke!
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