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New My favorite trivia question
What was the top income tax rate during the largest expansion of the US middle class on record?

Over 90% during the 1950's.

What was the main tax exemption available?

If you donated your whole income or more to charity, you didn't have to pay taxes. (Insert long list of museums and foundations thereby funded.)

Supply-side economics can take that and stuff it where the sun don't shine. Supply-side economics does not work for the middle class. What I want is a simple graduated income tax with more gradations than we have now, putting the average person at lower taxes, and the top at substantially more.

Cheers,
Ben
New Some references.
Hi Ben,

[link|http://www.taxplanet.com/library/oldtaxrates/oldtaxrates.html|Here] is a table of US income tax rates from 1913 - 2000.

The highest rate listed is 94% for incomes over $200,000 in 1944-1945.

I can't find comparable data for expansion of the middle-class, but I believe your comment is correct (that the middle-class expanded fastest in the 1950s).

But it's quite a stretch to argue that one follows from the other, or that one occurs with the other, isn't it? (I note that you didn't explicitly do so.)

I think the expansion of the middle class in the 1950s was a result of [link|http://www.nhmccd.edu/contracts/lrc/kc/decade50.html|a great many things]. I don't think that the highest marginal tax rate being 91-92% was one of them. Why? Because I doubt that a great many people paid that top rate and I doubt that a large fraction of the income tax collected was from income in that category. But I'm willing to be proved wrong. :-)

[link|http://library.thinkquest.org/17126/chapter/23.html|This] page about Eisenhower's presidency says:

The Other America

In 1962, 42.5 million Americans (1 of 4) were poor. These families earned less than $4,000 for a family of four or $2,000 for a single person. 1/4 were over age 65. 1/3 were under the age of 18. 1/5 were people of color (1/2 of all the blacks and native americans). 2/3 lived in households headed by a person with an 8th grade education or less. 1/4 lived in households headed by women.


One might expect that if the middle class did well in the 1950s that some of those benefits would have been shared by the poor as well. But that doesn't seem to have been the case by the end of the period.

If you have some links arguing that the expansion of middle class in the 1950s was strongly correlated with high marginal tax rates, I'd like to see them.

Thanks. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sorry, no good references
The note about income tax and supply side economics is something that I thought of after reading America, Who Pays the Taxes?. I don't know of anyone who has analyzed it in depth, and therefore all we have is a correlation.

However I don't need anything more for my basic point. I am not arguing for any economic theory, just against one. Now in the normal course of things I could look at a theory that says we give the ruling class all of the goodies that they want and the rest of us will wind up better off, and dismiss it as a moronic piece of rationalization. Unfortunately supply-side economics has aquired (despite a notable lack of experimental evidence) some degree of accepted credibility because it has been so often repeated as political gospel.

Therefore what I need is a simple memorable fact that runs exactly opposite to everything that supply side economics predicts. And I happen to have it.

As for whether the economic model from the 50's is good for the middle class, well I have no proof, merely (as I stated up front) opinion. And my opinion is that a graded income tax with extremely high taxes on the rich (that cannot easily be ducked) and lower average taxes is good overall.

Why?

Very simple. As current studies have indicated, there is no detectable correlation between CEO compensation and how well they run their companies. With low personal tax rates the CEO has every incentive to reward themselves regardless of the job done. High personal tax rates go a long way towards providing an effective disincentive. Now perhaps some don't like the result, but one effect is that CEOs like Thomas Watson at IBM get encouraged to put energy into building their companies into personal empires rather than just cashing out. And I think that is good for the middle class. (Of course far more than just that happened through the 50's.)

An incidental note. I said the main tax exemption, but I didn't explain how this exemption (called for historical reasons "the flying nun" exemption) worked in practice. You get to pay no taxes, if you donate your income or more to charity. But how can that be better than just taking your lumps and pay less than your income in taxes?

Quite easily. You don't pay capital gains taxes on charitable gifts. Make an investment. Wait a few years so it is worth more. Donate it to a charity (museum, foundation, etc) and take the full current value as a tax writeoff.

This works particularly well if grandpa had a convenient habit like collecting Monet paintings. Speaking of which, museums suddenly flush with unexpected money went into purchasing art in a big way and taking it out of circulation. This ongoing erosion of supply made art a very reliable investment, leading people to buy it for that reason and...

Cheers,
Ben
New Damn you, Ben.
You always argue my points far better than I ever could!

bcnu,
Mikem
New I can but try :-)
As long as we agree that is. :-) :-)

Cheers,
Ben
New And what was the balance of trade?
[link|http://www.epinet.org/webfeatures/snapshots/archive/062399/snapshots062399.html|Trade balance] in the 50s and 60s created a huge amount of skilled manufacturing jobs.

Jobs that have since been lost as we lost our edge in manufacturing to SouthEast Asia.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
     Can he do it? - (mmoffitt) - (118)
         trickle down economics, smells like P - (boxley) - (1)
             "Austerity" my foot! - (wharris2)
         Fuzzy Math... - (jb4)
         Keeping your eye on the prize... - (screamer)
         I think he can - (ben_tilly)
         "Supply side" economics never works - (nking) - (112)
             Slight disagreement... - (jb4)
             Actually, upside down is how it all started. - (mmoffitt) - (104)
                 You do remember that government revenues increased, right? -NT - (wharris2) - (103)
                     Don't bother them with such trivial details. - (bepatient) - (101)
                         Jed Clampet syndrome - (nking)
                         Doh! forgot about the trivial detail syndrome - (wharris2) - (98)
                             Amen - (SpiceWare) - (97)
                                 How about 7% if you make a billion, 28% if you make 50K? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     hang those suckers -NT - (wharris2)
                                     and where did you get that from? - (SpiceWare)
                                 Hold on a minute thar! - (nking) - (93)
                                     Elimination of loop holes is a major point of the Flat Tax -NT - (SpiceWare) - (92)
                                         I know, we'll have the Tooth Fairy write the new law. - (mmoffitt) - (91)
                                             Geesh, what 's up your ass? - (SpiceWare)
                                             Oh...you mean the guys who yell.... - (bepatient) - (89)
                                                 The flat tax will never work - (nking) - (1)
                                                     Whoa, there, it was Jerry Brown first! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                 On fairness. - (mmoffitt) - (86)
                                                     Different definitions of fair. -NT - (bepatient) - (85)
                                                         Re: Different definitions of fair. (more) - (bepatient) - (84)
                                                             Hasn't a sales tax been proven to be regressive? - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                 Thats why you exempt food and clothing. - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                                     And that makes it non-regressive? - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                                         I never made that claim. - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                             Just wondering why you're advocating it. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                                 Entertaining yarn at IRS site. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                 If you insist... - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                     It isn't me that has the problem. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                         whatever. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                             Target acquired. Proceeding with SLAM! - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                                                                 Carry on... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                                     "Less regressive" != progressive. - (Brandioch)
                                                             No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (mmoffitt) - (28)
                                                                 Well... - (bepatient) - (26)
                                                                     Let's get a couple things straight. - (mmoffitt) - (20)
                                                                         Bravo!! - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                             Thanks ;-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                         Lets do. - (bepatient) - (9)
                                                                             Iaccoca a good example - (Silverlock) - (8)
                                                                                 Incorrect assertion... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                                                                     So we misunderstand each other - (Silverlock) - (5)
                                                                                         Hard to get at the real heart of the matter.. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                                             Here's some real heart for you ;-) - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                                 Correction - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                     "stated position" inferred from your posts. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                         Ahhh, IC - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Re: Lee Iacocca - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                         Ahem...back to the original subject... - (Simon_Jester) - (7)
                                                                             On Force, study California in the 1940's. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                                                 Cecil doesn't think so. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                                                     Thanks - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                         Google on The Straight Dope - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Heh. - (mmoffitt)
                                                                                 Evil Grin - before you start praising mass transit... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                                     RightO! Thanks for reiterating the original point! -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                     7 billion consumers? Me thinks you make a huge mistake - (wharris2) - (2)
                                                                         Missed a comma and 3 - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                             Sounds much better -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                     I'm not replying to this one__ baby from candy. (you owe me) -NT - (Ashton)
                                                                     That is capitalism for you - (nking)
                                                                 Re: No one wants to punish anyone for success. - (nking)
                                                             The rich get away with too much - (nking) - (42)
                                                                 Assertions without foundation. - (bepatient) - (41)
                                                                     The way it really is - (nking) - (7)
                                                                         Take a chill pill, ya whiner -NT - (bbronson) - (6)
                                                                             I already have - (nking) - (5)
                                                                                 They don't seem to be working. Please move it to Flames. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                                                                                     Thanks for expressing my thought so well, Scott. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                     Wow. - (bepatient)
                                                                                     Sorry this IS Politics, rant away! -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                         Thank you - (nking)
                                                                     Re: the entire scrooges argument. - (mmoffitt) - (32)
                                                                         Progress. - (bepatient) - (31)
                                                                             You don't like "screwing"? How about... - (mmoffitt) - (25)
                                                                                 Bizness is morally neuter, ethically impoverished. - (Ashton) - (21)
                                                                                     I expected you here sooner ;-) - (bepatient) - (20)
                                                                                         I will never understand this. - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                                                             Knock, knock... - (screamer) - (2)
                                                                                                 Simpler explanation. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                     Fair enough... Now I understand... - (screamer)
                                                                                         My solution? has always been: actual OPERATING checks & - (Ashton) - (15)
                                                                                             Re: govt. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                                                                                                 Yes but.. in concentrating on that 'least' - (Ashton) - (13)
                                                                                                     Federal - (bepatient) - (12)
                                                                                                         Missed point, I think. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                                                                             You can't believe that - (bepatient)
                                                                                                         Bravo! - (screamer)
                                                                                                         That delicate balance.. - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                                                                             I hope this isn't lost. I have a question. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                                                                                                                 anarchy and chaos is much preferable to a benevolent - (boxley)
                                                                                                                 I can't imagine such a construct as, - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                     But then, Plato's philosopher king, comes to mind. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                                                                                                                 Benevolent dictatorship? - (Silverlock)
                                                                                                                 The King is coming - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                                                     Indulge your fantasy. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                                                         It is a question of when - (nking)
                                                                                 Overestimating marketing. - (bepatient)
                                                                                 Mood rings should have been illegal? :-P -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                                     YES! Mine was always black :-) -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                                             Wrongo! - (nking) - (4)
                                                                                 Read one book. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                     I'm already shocked - (nking) - (2)
                                                                                         Laugh. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                                                             Like I said - (nking)
                         It doesn't pay me personally. - (mmoffitt)
                     You do remember the Debt sextupled, right? -NT - (mmoffitt)
             My favorite trivia question - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                 Some references. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Sorry, no good references - (ben_tilly)
                 Damn you, Ben. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                     I can but try :-) - (ben_tilly)
                 And what was the balance of trade? - (bepatient)

Always wook on da bwight side of Wife!
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