Good idea but that's not what the author wants

Post #278,724 by warmachine 3/18/07 3:23:00 PM Reply	Good idea but that's not what the author wants Some have argued against Bible courses in public schools on the theory that they would unconstitutionally "establish" Judeo-Christianity. For Scripture courses to be lawful, this argument goes, teachers must give equal time to all the world's scriptures, treating the Bible as one scripture among many. But the Bible is of sufficient importance in Western civilization to merit its own course. Treating it no differently from, say, the Zend-Avesta of the Zoroastrians or Scientology's Dianetics makes no educational sense. The author advocates that christianity takes precedence because it is the majority religion. Iranian Zoroastrian who escaped persecution? Your religion is not equal here. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #278,727 by bepatient 3/18/07 3:49:58 PM Reply	Didn't I say "major" I think we could safely ignore L Ron Hubbard and some others. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #278,736 by Another Scott 3/18/07 4:34:32 PM Reply	I don't think Jefferson would like that. I don't think there's any benefit in having comparative religion classes in K-12 that overcomes the downside of having the state involved in religious instruction. I think Thomas Jefferson would agree. [link\|http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm\|Jefferson Quotations]: Benefits of Public Education [...] "Our institution will proceed on the principle of doing all the good it can without consulting its own pride or ambition; of letting everyone come and listen to whatever he thinks may improve the condition of his mind." --Thomas Jefferson to George Ticknor, 1823. ME 15:455 "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code, is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of freedom and happiness... The tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance." --Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, 1786. ME 5:396 [...] Related Issues "The truth is that the want of common education with us is not from our poverty, but from the want of an orderly system. More money is now paid for the education of a part than would be paid for that of the whole if systematically arranged." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1820. ME 15:291 "People generally have more feeling for canals and roads than education. However, I hope we can advance them with equal pace." --Thomas Jefferson to Joel Barlow, 1807. ME 11:401 "I now think it would be better for every ward to choose its own resident visitor, whose business it would be to keep a teacher in the ward, to superintend the school, and to call meetings of the ward for all purposes relating to it; their accounts to be settled, and wards laid off by the courts. I think ward elections better for many reasons, one of which is sufficient, that it will keep elementary education out of the hands of fanaticizing preachers, who, in county elections, would be universally chosen, and the predominant sect of the county would possess itself of all its schools." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Cabell, 1820. ME 15:293 "The transfer of the power to give commencement to the Ward or Elementary Schools from the court and aldermen to the visitors, was proposed because the experience of twenty years has proved that no court will ever begin it. The reason is obvious. The members of the courts are the wealthy members of the counties; and as the expenses of the schools are to be defrayed by a contribution proportioned to the aggregate of other taxes which every one pays, they consider it as a plan to educated the poor at the expense of the rich... The modification of the law, by authorizing the alderman to require the expense of tutorage from such parents as are able, would render trifling, if not wholly prevent, any call on the country for pecuniary aid." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1816. ME 14:413 [...] --Religion "The want of instruction in the various creeds of religious faith existing among our citizens presents... a chasm in a general institution of the useful sciences. But it was thought that this want, and the entrustment to each society of instruction in its own doctrine, were evils of less danger than a permission to the public authorities to dictate modes or principles of religious instruction, or than opportunities furnished them by giving countenance or ascendancy to any one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1822. ME 19:414 "After stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there and have the free use of our library and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other. This fills the chasm objected to ours, as a defect in an institution professing to give instruction in all useful sciences... And by bringing the sects together, and mixing them with the mass of other students, we shall soften their asperities, liberalize and neutralize their prejudices, and make the general religion a religion of peace, reason, and morality." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1822. ME 15:405 What I get from these quotes is that Jefferson was mainly concerned about educating the masses to keep the republic healthy. But he was also concerned about advancing the economic health of the young country. How would classes on the various religious faiths help achieve these goals? He was very aware of the dangers of religion being imposed on people by the state. Especially these days, I think his approach of setting aside space at universities for free use of facilities, paying for professorships, etc., by the various faiths for those who are interested in them is a pretty good one. Religious instruction shouldn't be in the K-12 classrooms. Cheers, Scott.
Post #278,741 by bepatient 3/18/07 5:40:35 PM Reply	Well, when you consider... that the majority still do NOT attend university...and that so much of what the >rest of< the world believes is of critical importance...I'd say that I have to disagree with Mr Jefferson and introduce this into our 11th or 12th grade curriculum. The GSA can force its agenda into middle school and we can't agree that understanding human religious beliefs is important? Thats pretty damned sad. We can take about being gay to a 12 year old but we can't tell them about the basis for most western morality...that would be BAD. No wonder most kids are screwed up. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #278,870 by Ashton 3/19/07 10:36:16 PM 3/19/07 10:39:47 PM Reply	Well, speaking of Western Religion and its 'morality' Or to paraphrase Gandhi's likely most famous quote re 'Western civilization' What do you think of Western morality? G: I think it would be a good idea. Before teaching "Christian Bible Reading 101-R" to massively-captive audiences of ~~Xians (all 1666 varieties engaged in their interminable internecine warfare), Jews, nontheists, a-theists et alia.. I'd think it more along the lines of 'critical thinking' to construct a course with some. notion. -simply- of what the word metaphysical connotes, why that is a distinctly non-'religious' methodology, such as it has been.. (being 'religious; does not follow inexorably from: any small comprehension of that concept) -- and why the (considerable..) effort to discern the Difference: may save any student (paying attention) a lifetime of enduring (or launching) specious "logical" arguments about which Gawd is the Badder female Deity.. whose wrath you'd best escape. Ad nauseum I Who Be ... Yashure, right after Rush's Dittoheads leave, en masse - and enroll. Ed: opTy Deeply earnest and thoughtful people stand on shaky footing with the public. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe PPS: or, have Blackwater [World's Largest Mercenary Army\ufffd, whether outsourced by Shrub or -???- the Next highest bidder] -- do the introduction to $morality VS umm, some of the other flavors. [??] ie. ... never mind. :-/ Edited by Ashton March 19, 2007, 10:39:47 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #278,882 by bepatient 3/19/07 11:13:46 PM Reply	So you think it wise... to "spare" our youth a discussion of religious documents...essentially treating the fact that a majority of the earth's populace has a belief structure based on a half dozen or so religious doctrines as the singular concept of "they believe"...ignoring exactly what it is that they believe? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #278,889 by Ashton 3/19/07 11:40:52 PM Reply	As usual, you think linearly on this issue (too) >That comes After< -- the inception of a miniscule capability at -- Didja ever catch, in the '80s on PBS - a Brit wag's show, [link\|http://www.amazon.com/Bonos-Thinking-course-Edward-Bono/dp/0563165006\| De Bono's Thinking Course] ?? A proof that you Can! 'teach. thinking.' Typ accompanying 'members' on his 'show' were aged ~8 to 80; random 'problems' were tossed out: audience was to contribute "angles of view" (A synonym for 'scale and relativity' I wot, then and now.) Fascinating to watch / partake. Once a tyke has an intro into the Problem: that of the Mystery {sigh} ~ "why is there Anything, At All?" Then [and Only then] the fatuous bafflegab which (even on on into the sublime, very-occasionally) - is the Stuff of religio warz - can be seen for what it is, (and, even in one warring faction's own fav symbolism! to boot): a Tower of Babel / the Blind leading the Blind - while tithing the masses for the chance to hear their imaginitive guesses / buy their fancy robes.) Etc. See? (yet) FIRST comes: the capacity to discern! NEXT: may come (in some special cases) actual insight, possibly even rough communication of that insight [don't count much on that] -- if each one has first read The Tyranny of Words, thus appreciates just how many blab-words are bound to enter into Any 'religion' topic. LASTLY: all who have, in this way, come to see the anatomy of the 'Issue'; those thus prepared -- can enjoy a decent belly laugh at, What Fools these mortals Be. HTH
Post #278,891 by bepatient 3/19/07 11:48:48 PM Reply	Sure... you want a course that teaches kids to think...teaches them to think that the majority of the world's people are mindless sheeple...because they believe something that you don't. Pardon me for thinking that teaching the kids to understand what these people base their beliefs on is a good idea. What could I be thinking? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #278,894 by Ashton 3/20/07 12:24:07 AM Reply	Thou sayest What could I be thinking? and demonstrate ... ^ Z o o o m ^ the fatuousness of your underscoring the folly of attempting to make Sense of the duelling bafflegab - which you wish to have presented as, ~~ "reasoned dialogue" -?- with All Due Respect cha cha cha Before! one has learned how [ever] to Tell what IS and what may NOT be 'fatuous' - You can't have it Both Ways. Know why you believe X or, don't bother. ymmv; obv Does.
Post #278,897 by Ashton 3/20/07 12:44:49 AM Reply	And, just then.. the GRR comes up with an Ad: [link\|http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1598582437/qid=1167254067/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-7926611-5726260?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155&qid=1167254067&gclid=CM2AmYjFgosCFQ8RQQod5XzkGw\| LIFE! Why We Exist... And What We Must Do To Survive] Haven't read the blurb.. but a quick scan of first review provides this gem: One final bit of wisdom from the wise, articulate and always very fair Mr. Walker: "As conscious beings...We can conceive of things that don't exist and could never exist. We can therefore appreciate that material existence is not a necessary condition, and neither does it encompass all conceivable possibilities." (p. 99) Tell Me ... that, the LRPD, (OK.. in concert with the GRR's Ad Agency ...) ain't Sentient!
Post #278,911 by bepatient 3/20/07 8:52:37 AM Reply	Would be interesting but I'm not talking about a "religion" class...talking about a comparative class on the belief structure and underpinnings. In what I'm talking about...the "why I believe" is irrelevant. The "what THEY believe" is how its taught. Think sociology. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #279,108 by Ashton 3/21/07 7:03:07 PM Reply	Clearer.. certainly better than Now. But.. it-all (including that 'comparative' class) could be viewed with much less confusion from - a bit of preparation along the lines I suggested. (How coul done possibly explain, 'n lambda = 2 d sine theta' -- if the student has to ask, "whats an [=]?" or, "why is there a frat house in this?")
Post #278,760 by drewk 3/18/07 8:58:24 PM Reply	Nit If you define "major" simply by the number of people in it, then yes. But if "major" includes the amount of economic power the group is able to wield, then Scientology is right up there. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]

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