Re: Spoken Language?

Post #27,599 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 10:46:35 PM Reply	Re: Spoken Language? >>>Are you suggesting that it is random? No, randomized :). You intentionally changed rather good piece of code you had before to demonstrate different approach. And that took you to shorter code, but less obvious meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mirroring the current problem statement as strong as possible is not at the top of my priority list, for it will drift away from that. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The thing is, we have nothing else to "mirror". If the code does not reflect our current understanding of what it's supposed to do, then what does it reflect? And if the code is a self-sufficient object not reflecting anything, how is another person to understand what it's doing? >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a bit premature to assume that language reflects the way our individual heads actually work. English is not optimized for my head, as you can tell by reading this. You are also implying that Swaheelly speakers think different than English speakers. That may indeed be the case, but this just underlines the relativism nature of my claims. <<<<<<<<<<<<< I have to agree, it was my basic assumption. _I_ can only think in words, therefore I can't think outside forms provided by natural language. I assumed it's a general human property. Are you saying I was wrong? As to Swaheely (sp?), I suspect it's structure is similar to English. I am yet to hear about a language that has no nouns or no verbs. I do indeed claim that before you change you need to understand. How do you know what part to change whe you are tols that each line in invoice is now allowed its own shipping method? You need to realize how the shipping cost calculation was set up before. I am still not sure what "codlets" are. I have a strong suspicion that they are rather closely related to functions. Care to show an example of coddlet? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Note that sentences can have multiple nouns: "Bob, Rita, Miki, Arther-Anderson consultants, and Todd all got together to plan the new Spring advertizing compaign." (Hmmmmm, this kinda reflects what NKING said.) Yet, there is only one verb. <<<<<<<<<<<< Yes. And that's called aggregation. Those guys and gals formed something known as Working Group. And, by the way, if you continue the story, you'll find out that Rita presided over meeting, new advertizing ideas were generated by Miki, consultants formed a unified front to shoot those ideas down, and Todd was simple there for head count and drunk lots of coffee. See where I am going? The code would be rather like: WorkingGroup group = new WorkingGroup(); group.setPresident(rita); group.addConsultanta(consultantA); group.addConsultanta(consultantB); group.setBallast(todd); void WorkingGroup::conductMeeting() { while (president.getNewIdea(miki)) { if (consultants.ideaIsAcceptable(president.getCurrentIdea())) president.recordActionItems(); else president.dropCurrentIdea(); ballast.anotherCuppaCoffee(); } }
Post #27,608 by tablizer 2/7/02 12:51:58 AM Reply	Hmmmm. Verbal thinkers versus visual thinkers >> And that took you to shorter code, but less obvious meaning. << If one gets used to such, then it is obvious. >> If the code does not reflect our current understanding of what it's supposed to do, then what does it reflect? << It does reflect it, just not the way you prefer. >> I have to agree, it was my basic assumption. _I_ can only think in words, therefore I can't think outside forms provided by natural language. I assumed it's a general human property. Are you saying I was wrong? << I tend to think visually. Images and actions appear in my mind first, and then I translate them into words (if required). I come from a lineage of artists. I wonder if other artists are also table fans? I have heard others state that OO fans tend to be "verbal thinkers". I don't remember where I heard this. >> I am still not sure what "codlets" are. I have a strong suspicion that they are rather closely related to functions. Care to show an example of coddlet? << In general they are expressions that tell how to structure and relate something. The idea is to have a formula for the relationships and patterns rather than physically structure things in the desired way. I find it easier to change a formula than to change a physical structure of the building blocks. It is also easier for multiple things to participate in different views this way IMO. It is all about creating "virtual views" of structures and relationships. "Coddlets" usually take the form of Boolean and set-based expressions. SQL is probably the most popular example. >> if (consultants.ideaIsAcceptable(president.getCurrentIdea())) president.recordActionItems(); << Hmmmm. The president only listens to the consultants. BTW, I forgot to add the copy machine, photo-lab, and corporate library to the mix. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,646 by Arkadiy 2/7/02 10:34:38 AM Reply	Seems like end of conversation, then. OO is for those who think in words. TOP (I still don't quite get it, but so be it - I guess I think differently) is for those that think in images. Next time, before you start talking to somebody about OO, ask which way he/she thinks. If in pictures - you'll find a thankful listener. If in words - you'll find an intersting but purposeless fight. If you were asking my opinion (which you aren't) I'd say that words are better suited for computers. But it's just me. To all: next time you are tempted to argue with Bryce - remember this thread. At least for me, the temptation comes from very basic difference in thinking process. Such differences cannot be settled by an argument.
Post #27,662 by CRConrad 2/7/02 12:47:29 PM Reply	See also Stephenson, In The Beginning Was The Command Line..
Post #27,880 by tablizer 2/8/02 11:10:58 PM Reply	Actually, I like command lines ....if they are well-designed. It is generally easier to type in a substring ("contains") and get a short list of numbered matches than to browse thru a huge picklist of titles. My fingers are faster than my eyes, it seems. However, I have never seen such implemented like I envision it. Some systems "fill in" from the right side, but that is not good enough. It must be a "contains" to work effectively (for me). ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,726 by static 2/7/02 8:07:43 PM Reply	Noted. He often seems to come so close and then something twists and he won't go any further. I recall much the same sort of discussion way back on IWE about lexical analysis. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #27,735 by tablizer 2/7/02 9:40:32 PM 2/7/02 9:46:35 PM Reply	Can our differences really be all that simple? >> If you were asking my opinion (which you aren't) I'd say that words are better suited for computers. But it's just me. << But they seem to do tables pretty well. ________________ oop.ismad.com Edited by tablizer Feb. 7, 2002, 09:46:35 PM EST Expand All History
Post #27,782 by Arkadiy 2/8/02 9:37:57 AM Reply	Simple? You call fundamental difference in how people think "simple"? I disagree. My beef is not with tables. OO can meake good use of SQL, lookup tables, even tables containing code, although that's stretching it. My problem is that you don't see the relationship between action and actor. Apparently, for you, actions just happen, without any acting entity, or at least without a single main acting entity. That goes contrary to the way my brain works.
Post #27,827 by tablizer 2/8/02 1:00:37 PM Reply	Compared to others, yes. >> You call fundamental difference in how people think "simple"? I disagree. << It is a much "cleaner" explanation than most others floated, especially those floated at the end of heated debates :-) >> My problem is that you don't see the relationship between action and actor. Apparently, for you, actions just happen, without any acting entity, or at least without a single main acting entity. << I see the relationship as open-ended and dynamic and multiple. I see the relationship to actors like local variables: created, used, then tossed away. IOW, the relationships are "encapsulated" within a given operation more or less. If you make it global, then you have more dependencies to change if the relationships change IMO. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,783 by Another Scott 2/8/02 9:38:14 AM Reply	On visual thinking. If you haven't read it, you might enjoy [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679772898/qid=1013179102/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-9334142-8588622\|Thinking in Pictures] by Temple Grandin. She's an autistic woman who is a professor and [link\|http://www.grandin.com/\|designer of cattle handling facilities]. She thinks visually. It's a very interesting book. Cheers, Scott.
Post #27,861 by tablizer 2/8/02 8:06:47 PM Reply	mooooo >> If you haven't read it, you might enjoy Thinking in Pictures by Temple Grandin << A visual thinker with less-than-perfect social skills and who likes to hang around cows? I donno. My wife thinks I need more exposure to normal people. Movies and books that glorify wacked-out geniuses put too many "risky thoughts" into my head, her theory goes. Thanks for the tip, however. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #28,780 by Ashton 2/17/02 10:44:11 PM Reply	I've heard her speak.. And on the level of this discussion - I second Scott's recommendation. And don't at all get why you'd dismiss with such disinterest -?- a title almost the same as your self-description! Or is that a feigned obtuseness - to keep your rep intact? ;-) I don't do code, but still found some of the above examples intelligible enough to imagine I see something of.. (??) different kinds of gears whirling in the old neural networks. The comments re the 'view' of an end-user VS the methodology - I deemed a nice vindication of the idea that, even in complex symbolic logic - good (English or other) language usage can produce near-enough comprehension.. I only got this far because - for once - it seemed there was a mutual desire to actually get to the Sticking point(s). And that's as good as the NY Times Crossword :=\ufffd Think you ought to check out Temple Grandin -- there can't be Too many out there, constructed 'zackly like You, y'know? [/book review] Ashton Who congrats Arkadiy and Bryce for 'keeping it in the pants' and producing an intelligible sequence.. if not quite the definitive Omega (!?) of it all.
Post #27,622 by CRConrad 2/7/02 5:58:53 AM Reply	Sp: "Swahili". Kwaheri, Jambo! (Which means "Hello, Friend!", IIRC. :-) Oh, and if you see Bryce talking about "speghetti" or "relevent", he probably means "spaghetti" and "relevant"... HTH! Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,736 by tablizer 2/7/02 9:43:56 PM Reply	I've had enuf of your irrelevent, speghetti insolts :-) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,775 by CRConrad 2/8/02 8:55:34 AM Reply	Hey Bryce, I was just over on /. and revisited an old... ...post of mine that you'd replied to in the meantime: No, I didn't do any "scoretrolling". (And AFAICR I hadn't read the other posts you referred to; that's why I didn't reply to your points about them.) Speaking for myself, I couldn't have "scoretrolled" (AFAIK), since I'd posted in the thread... But I don't think anyone else from here would have done that either. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,863 by tablizer 2/8/02 8:11:29 PM Reply	Okay, you are off the hook >> No, I didn't do any "scoretrolling". << Okay, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. The relative sudden drop in ratings and you coming around could have very well been purely cooncidental. >> I couldn't have "scoretrolled" (AFAIK), since I'd posted in the thread... << Some people have multiple logins. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,632 by pwhysall 2/7/02 7:54:21 AM Reply	Re: Spoken Language? I am still not sure what "codlets" are. Baby cod, of course. They grow up into big cod, destined to end up on my plate alongside chips and mushy peas. Damn. Now I'm hungry. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]

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