Misunderstanding

Post #27,445 by tablizer 2/5/02 8:03:45 PM Reply	Misunderstanding I should have made it clear that those were only sample destination numbers. I did not mean that such were hard-wired into production code. Let's say that the numbers are gathered from another operation that dynamically groups shipping costs based on available carriers if the customer approves of mixed shippers. If not, then one shipper is used. >> I had [been doing] it long before I came across OO. << Perhaps you were born with an OO mind. OO fans often say that OO simply formalized the way they always saw programming when it came along. >> But I hope to demonstrate that style that does not keep track of the relationship between functions and data they operate on is not good in the long run. << And I hope to demonstration that artificial, exaggerated, and/or forced coupling (associations) is not good in the long run. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,500 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 10:47:48 AM Reply	Actual numbers don't matter much. It could have been a value of variable - my objection still stands. My code reflects my understanding of problem domain. Your code does not reflect your understanding of problem domain, or at least I can't deduce your understanding from it. Nothing "artificial, exaggerated, and/or forced" is good in any run - long or short. My contention is that in addition to all artificial and forced couplings one can come up with there _always_ is at least one that is natural and proper. It is always worth the effort to find that coupling, because, when found, it has deep roots in problem domain, allowing your code ... (you heard that already). Why do I think there always is a natural coupling? Because of the structure of our language (and, therefore, our thought process). Whenever we use a verb, there is a noun somewhere, the actor, the doer, explicit or implied. That is the natural and proper connection I struggle to make obvious in my code.
Post #27,558 by tablizer 2/6/02 6:43:02 PM Reply	Spoken Language? >> Your code does not reflect your understanding of problem domain, or at least I can't deduce your understanding from it. << Are you suggesting that it is random? Perhaps we are optimizing for different things. One of my ultimate goals is to make the system change-friendly. Mirroring the current problem statement as strong as possible is not at the top of my priority list, for it will drift away from that. Using a Coddlet I can relatively easily change what the "input tenticles" tap into. IOW, I see no benefit and some drawbacks (moving around methods that even you agreed a bit with) to putting a strong bond between the operation and an entity. >> Why do I think there always is a natural coupling? Because of the structure of our language (and, therefore, our thought process). << It is a bit premature to assume that language reflects the way our individual heads actually work. English is not optimized for my head, as you can tell by reading this. You are also implying that Swaheelly speakers think different than English speakers. That may indeed be the case, but this just underlines the relativism nature of my claims. >> Whenever we use a verb, there is a noun somewhere, the actor, the doer, explicit or implied. << Again, my main goal is to maximize change-friendliness, and not necessarily mirror English sentences. I suppose you could claim that something is easier to change if it is easier to grok (by matching verbal languages), but I would probably reply, "then learn to think in Coddlets" and grow beyond human language. (Mirroring the "take your medicine" suggestions of some of youses.) In some ways I think my approach models business behavior: a bunch of people or resources temporarily come together to work on some designated task or goal. When the task is done, the team splits up to work on other things in other combinations using other roles. Note that sentences can have multiple nouns: "Bob, Rita, Miki, Arther-Anderson consultants, and Todd all got together to plan the new Spring advertizing compaign." (Hmmmmm, this kinda reflects what NKING said.) Yet, there is only one verb. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,599 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 10:46:35 PM Reply	Re: Spoken Language? >>>Are you suggesting that it is random? No, randomized :). You intentionally changed rather good piece of code you had before to demonstrate different approach. And that took you to shorter code, but less obvious meaning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mirroring the current problem statement as strong as possible is not at the top of my priority list, for it will drift away from that. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The thing is, we have nothing else to "mirror". If the code does not reflect our current understanding of what it's supposed to do, then what does it reflect? And if the code is a self-sufficient object not reflecting anything, how is another person to understand what it's doing? >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a bit premature to assume that language reflects the way our individual heads actually work. English is not optimized for my head, as you can tell by reading this. You are also implying that Swaheelly speakers think different than English speakers. That may indeed be the case, but this just underlines the relativism nature of my claims. <<<<<<<<<<<<< I have to agree, it was my basic assumption. _I_ can only think in words, therefore I can't think outside forms provided by natural language. I assumed it's a general human property. Are you saying I was wrong? As to Swaheely (sp?), I suspect it's structure is similar to English. I am yet to hear about a language that has no nouns or no verbs. I do indeed claim that before you change you need to understand. How do you know what part to change whe you are tols that each line in invoice is now allowed its own shipping method? You need to realize how the shipping cost calculation was set up before. I am still not sure what "codlets" are. I have a strong suspicion that they are rather closely related to functions. Care to show an example of coddlet? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Note that sentences can have multiple nouns: "Bob, Rita, Miki, Arther-Anderson consultants, and Todd all got together to plan the new Spring advertizing compaign." (Hmmmmm, this kinda reflects what NKING said.) Yet, there is only one verb. <<<<<<<<<<<< Yes. And that's called aggregation. Those guys and gals formed something known as Working Group. And, by the way, if you continue the story, you'll find out that Rita presided over meeting, new advertizing ideas were generated by Miki, consultants formed a unified front to shoot those ideas down, and Todd was simple there for head count and drunk lots of coffee. See where I am going? The code would be rather like: WorkingGroup group = new WorkingGroup(); group.setPresident(rita); group.addConsultanta(consultantA); group.addConsultanta(consultantB); group.setBallast(todd); void WorkingGroup::conductMeeting() { while (president.getNewIdea(miki)) { if (consultants.ideaIsAcceptable(president.getCurrentIdea())) president.recordActionItems(); else president.dropCurrentIdea(); ballast.anotherCuppaCoffee(); } }
Post #27,608 by tablizer 2/7/02 12:51:58 AM Reply	Hmmmm. Verbal thinkers versus visual thinkers >> And that took you to shorter code, but less obvious meaning. << If one gets used to such, then it is obvious. >> If the code does not reflect our current understanding of what it's supposed to do, then what does it reflect? << It does reflect it, just not the way you prefer. >> I have to agree, it was my basic assumption. _I_ can only think in words, therefore I can't think outside forms provided by natural language. I assumed it's a general human property. Are you saying I was wrong? << I tend to think visually. Images and actions appear in my mind first, and then I translate them into words (if required). I come from a lineage of artists. I wonder if other artists are also table fans? I have heard others state that OO fans tend to be "verbal thinkers". I don't remember where I heard this. >> I am still not sure what "codlets" are. I have a strong suspicion that they are rather closely related to functions. Care to show an example of coddlet? << In general they are expressions that tell how to structure and relate something. The idea is to have a formula for the relationships and patterns rather than physically structure things in the desired way. I find it easier to change a formula than to change a physical structure of the building blocks. It is also easier for multiple things to participate in different views this way IMO. It is all about creating "virtual views" of structures and relationships. "Coddlets" usually take the form of Boolean and set-based expressions. SQL is probably the most popular example. >> if (consultants.ideaIsAcceptable(president.getCurrentIdea())) president.recordActionItems(); << Hmmmm. The president only listens to the consultants. BTW, I forgot to add the copy machine, photo-lab, and corporate library to the mix. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,646 by Arkadiy 2/7/02 10:34:38 AM Reply	Seems like end of conversation, then. OO is for those who think in words. TOP (I still don't quite get it, but so be it - I guess I think differently) is for those that think in images. Next time, before you start talking to somebody about OO, ask which way he/she thinks. If in pictures - you'll find a thankful listener. If in words - you'll find an intersting but purposeless fight. If you were asking my opinion (which you aren't) I'd say that words are better suited for computers. But it's just me. To all: next time you are tempted to argue with Bryce - remember this thread. At least for me, the temptation comes from very basic difference in thinking process. Such differences cannot be settled by an argument.
Post #27,662 by CRConrad 2/7/02 12:47:29 PM Reply	See also Stephenson, In The Beginning Was The Command Line..
Post #27,880 by tablizer 2/8/02 11:10:58 PM Reply	Actually, I like command lines ....if they are well-designed. It is generally easier to type in a substring ("contains") and get a short list of numbered matches than to browse thru a huge picklist of titles. My fingers are faster than my eyes, it seems. However, I have never seen such implemented like I envision it. Some systems "fill in" from the right side, but that is not good enough. It must be a "contains" to work effectively (for me). ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,726 by static 2/7/02 8:07:43 PM Reply	Noted. He often seems to come so close and then something twists and he won't go any further. I recall much the same sort of discussion way back on IWE about lexical analysis. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #27,735 by tablizer 2/7/02 9:40:32 PM 2/7/02 9:46:35 PM Reply	Can our differences really be all that simple? >> If you were asking my opinion (which you aren't) I'd say that words are better suited for computers. But it's just me. << But they seem to do tables pretty well. ________________ oop.ismad.com Edited by tablizer Feb. 7, 2002, 09:46:35 PM EST Expand All History
Post #27,782 by Arkadiy 2/8/02 9:37:57 AM Reply	Simple? You call fundamental difference in how people think "simple"? I disagree. My beef is not with tables. OO can meake good use of SQL, lookup tables, even tables containing code, although that's stretching it. My problem is that you don't see the relationship between action and actor. Apparently, for you, actions just happen, without any acting entity, or at least without a single main acting entity. That goes contrary to the way my brain works.
Post #27,827 by tablizer 2/8/02 1:00:37 PM Reply	Compared to others, yes. >> You call fundamental difference in how people think "simple"? I disagree. << It is a much "cleaner" explanation than most others floated, especially those floated at the end of heated debates :-) >> My problem is that you don't see the relationship between action and actor. Apparently, for you, actions just happen, without any acting entity, or at least without a single main acting entity. << I see the relationship as open-ended and dynamic and multiple. I see the relationship to actors like local variables: created, used, then tossed away. IOW, the relationships are "encapsulated" within a given operation more or less. If you make it global, then you have more dependencies to change if the relationships change IMO. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,783 by Another Scott 2/8/02 9:38:14 AM Reply	On visual thinking. If you haven't read it, you might enjoy [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679772898/qid=1013179102/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-9334142-8588622\|Thinking in Pictures] by Temple Grandin. She's an autistic woman who is a professor and [link\|http://www.grandin.com/\|designer of cattle handling facilities]. She thinks visually. It's a very interesting book. Cheers, Scott.
Post #27,861 by tablizer 2/8/02 8:06:47 PM Reply	mooooo >> If you haven't read it, you might enjoy Thinking in Pictures by Temple Grandin << A visual thinker with less-than-perfect social skills and who likes to hang around cows? I donno. My wife thinks I need more exposure to normal people. Movies and books that glorify wacked-out geniuses put too many "risky thoughts" into my head, her theory goes. Thanks for the tip, however. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #28,780 by Ashton 2/17/02 10:44:11 PM Reply	I've heard her speak.. And on the level of this discussion - I second Scott's recommendation. And don't at all get why you'd dismiss with such disinterest -?- a title almost the same as your self-description! Or is that a feigned obtuseness - to keep your rep intact? ;-) I don't do code, but still found some of the above examples intelligible enough to imagine I see something of.. (??) different kinds of gears whirling in the old neural networks. The comments re the 'view' of an end-user VS the methodology - I deemed a nice vindication of the idea that, even in complex symbolic logic - good (English or other) language usage can produce near-enough comprehension.. I only got this far because - for once - it seemed there was a mutual desire to actually get to the Sticking point(s). And that's as good as the NY Times Crossword :=\ufffd Think you ought to check out Temple Grandin -- there can't be Too many out there, constructed 'zackly like You, y'know? [/book review] Ashton Who congrats Arkadiy and Bryce for 'keeping it in the pants' and producing an intelligible sequence.. if not quite the definitive Omega (!?) of it all.
Post #27,622 by CRConrad 2/7/02 5:58:53 AM Reply	Sp: "Swahili". Kwaheri, Jambo! (Which means "Hello, Friend!", IIRC. :-) Oh, and if you see Bryce talking about "speghetti" or "relevent", he probably means "spaghetti" and "relevant"... HTH! Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,736 by tablizer 2/7/02 9:43:56 PM Reply	I've had enuf of your irrelevent, speghetti insolts :-) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,775 by CRConrad 2/8/02 8:55:34 AM Reply	Hey Bryce, I was just over on /. and revisited an old... ...post of mine that you'd replied to in the meantime: No, I didn't do any "scoretrolling". (And AFAICR I hadn't read the other posts you referred to; that's why I didn't reply to your points about them.) Speaking for myself, I couldn't have "scoretrolled" (AFAIK), since I'd posted in the thread... But I don't think anyone else from here would have done that either. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,863 by tablizer 2/8/02 8:11:29 PM Reply	Okay, you are off the hook >> No, I didn't do any "scoretrolling". << Okay, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. The relative sudden drop in ratings and you coming around could have very well been purely cooncidental. >> I couldn't have "scoretrolled" (AFAIK), since I'd posted in the thread... << Some people have multiple logins. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,632 by pwhysall 2/7/02 7:54:21 AM Reply	Re: Spoken Language? I am still not sure what "codlets" are. Baby cod, of course. They grow up into big cod, destined to end up on my plate alongside chips and mushy peas. Damn. Now I'm hungry. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #27,503 by CRConrad 2/6/02 11:05:49 AM Reply	Nothing else is possible with you. Bryce: Perhaps you were born with an OO mind. OO fans often say that OO simply formalized the way they always saw programming when it came along. Naah, he was probably born with a mind that was ggod for programming. That's what OOP is; a codification of "best practices" from pre-OO programming. And I hope to demonstration that artificial, exaggerated, and/or forced coupling (associations) is not good in the long run. How about you (at least try to) demonstrate [sic] what's good about non-OO programming, in stead of going off on yet another silly rant on what's "bad" about OOP? We'll never be able to understand what you claim is so good about your "p/r"[] style of programming, until you* give us an example of your reasoning[+] -- a full-fledged example, from basic requirements to (at least an outline of) working code. That's what this thread was supposed to be about (or perhaps rather, lead up to), you know... But as usual, you've diverted the conversation from the original tack taken by someone else, by your obstinate refusal to answer the question asked of you. Why[#] do you persist in doing that?!? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything []: Still a misnomer -- OOP is not the opposite of "p/r", it's the opposite of "just p". The opposite of "p/r" would be "OOP/R". [+]: If there actually is* any, which I kind of doubt... [#]: Unless you start to play ball, we'll have no other choice than to assume it's because you know you'd disprove yourself by disclosing it.
Post #27,510 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 12:20:44 PM Reply	Did you notice... ...I am trying to show some respect here? Calling someone's mind "no ggod for programming" is not going to acomplish much, except starting a flame war.
Post #27,517 by CRConrad 2/6/02 12:53:07 PM Reply	What're you talking about?!? I called a mind (yours) "good"!
Post #27,522 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 1:43:04 PM Reply	Thank you. But you did it through calling my opponent's mind "not good". I will not be the one to flame you, you see? But the flames will fly anyway, and whatever small possibilioty of understanding we currently have would be lost.
Post #27,529 by CRConrad 2/6/02 2:14:26 PM Reply	More like the other way around... I sez: What're you talking about?!? I called a mind (yours) "good"! To which Arkadiy replies: But you did it through calling my opponent's mind "not good". Naah. It's vicey-versy; Through calling your mind "good for programming", I left a door open for someone to take away the impression that I don't think Bryce's is as good... But one doesn't have to. So, if one does, perhaps that tells more about the one who does so than about what I actually said, eh? That's called the Fine Art of Implication. (Or was it tFAoInnuendo?) I will not be the one to flame you, you see? But the flames will fly anyway, and whatever small possibilioty of understanding we currently have would be lost. Lissen, Ark, when you've been around Bryce for as long as I have -- which is five years, now -- maybe you'll realise that there IS NO, however small, possibility of understanding with Bryce. And by then you'll certainly know in your bones that most people some times, and some people most of the time -- no prizes for guessing which category I think Bryce belongs to -- DESERVE to be flamed. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,540 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 3:16:12 PM Reply	Right you are. You did not say anything about his mind. I was wrong. I guess it does say something about me. As for Bryce, I've been around him as long as you, if not longer. I've seen hin appear at IWE. I guess his long sabbatical from these fora (yeah, yeah, I remember how it came about) made me hopeful again. And I have to admit it made him more civil.
Post #27,556 by CRConrad 2/6/02 6:30:26 PM Reply	Actually, you are right too... ...about that last point: And I have to admit it made him more civil. Too bad he hasn't become any less stubborn, or more open-minded! Hey, no, sorry: You have made some progress, Bryce. As for Bryce, I've been around him as long as you, if not longer. I've seen hin appear at IWE. As long, then, but not longer. Dang, really? Sorry, I must have plain forgotten you'd been around for that long. (I think I had, somehow, the impression you were too young for that.) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,563 by tablizer 2/6/02 6:54:59 PM Reply	not think like me == bad mind ? >> Lissen, Ark, when you've been around Bryce for as long as I have -- which is five years, now -- maybe you'll realise that there IS NO, however small, possibility of understanding with Bryce. << Other table fans who send me email seem to "click" with what I have to say. People who tended to hire me for contracts also liked tablizing things in many ways. It is a common human fault to conclude that: ! think like me == bad mind I am trying to overcome this built-in human bias by NOT suggesting that my approach is objectively better. It fits my head better, that is all I objectively claim (if that is not a contradiction). The examples on my website are simply bonus information where I try to communicate my dissatisfaction with OOP. I don't seeing you trying to overcome this bias in any way. (By the way, he may not have directly said it, but the implication is rather strong.) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,561 by tablizer 2/6/02 6:48:43 PM Reply	Walk Before Run >> Naah, he was probably born with a mind that was [good] for programming. That's what OOP is; a codification of "best practices" from pre-OO programming. << Then why do you CRC have a preference for Delphi over Smalltalk? Sure, I could probably buck up and go with the OOP flow to get by (I'll never be a star perhaps), but that still doesn't answer the question of why X is allegedly better than Y. BTW, if it is truely "best practices" then it should be relatively easy to show how these practices improve maintenance over the other practices by showing the keystrokes/mousestrokes, typing, etc, that programmers go thru. I know this is a rather crude metric, but in the end that is what it always boils down to from an objective standpoint. Grokability is generally not measurable in individuals, only in aggregate. Thus, what we have left is human body movements to perform various software maintanence tasks. Now, you may claim most people fit OOP better and the "left handers" just have to go along, but this is probably not true, and another topic. >> How about you (at least try to) demonstrate [sic] what's good about non-OO programming, in stead of going off on yet another silly rant on what's "bad" about OOP? << I have a whole website with small examples. True, small examples are of limited value, but when we do get into the nitty gritty, the differences often appear to subjective. Things like, "if you do it that way, then you risk busting this stuff over here." Reply: "Yeah, but that rarely happens to me practice, so why should I worry about preventing that?" IOW, what F's person A up may not F person B up. I have coined the term "mental ergonomics" for this. (Yeah yeah, I know, you don't like my coinages.) >> a full-fledged example, from basic requirements to (at least an outline of) working code. << IMO, we should walk before running. The Reports example is a relatively good starting place. After we beat that one to death, then we can work up to something bigger. Such a system could grow quite large anyhow as one tacks on one-off changes that the main framework cannot handle directly. Such one-off-ism is a primary complicator of biz software IME. You are also welcome to present a King Delphi example also. ________________ oop.ismad.com

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