Nothing else is possible with you.

Post #27,503 by CRConrad 2/6/02 11:05:49 AM Reply	Nothing else is possible with you. Bryce: Perhaps you were born with an OO mind. OO fans often say that OO simply formalized the way they always saw programming when it came along. Naah, he was probably born with a mind that was ggod for programming. That's what OOP is; a codification of "best practices" from pre-OO programming. And I hope to demonstration that artificial, exaggerated, and/or forced coupling (associations) is not good in the long run. How about you (at least try to) demonstrate [sic] what's good about non-OO programming, in stead of going off on yet another silly rant on what's "bad" about OOP? We'll never be able to understand what you claim is so good about your "p/r"[] style of programming, until you* give us an example of your reasoning[+] -- a full-fledged example, from basic requirements to (at least an outline of) working code. That's what this thread was supposed to be about (or perhaps rather, lead up to), you know... But as usual, you've diverted the conversation from the original tack taken by someone else, by your obstinate refusal to answer the question asked of you. Why[#] do you persist in doing that?!? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything []: Still a misnomer -- OOP is not the opposite of "p/r", it's the opposite of "just p". The opposite of "p/r" would be "OOP/R". [+]: If there actually is* any, which I kind of doubt... [#]: Unless you start to play ball, we'll have no other choice than to assume it's because you know you'd disprove yourself by disclosing it.
Post #27,510 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 12:20:44 PM Reply	Did you notice... ...I am trying to show some respect here? Calling someone's mind "no ggod for programming" is not going to acomplish much, except starting a flame war.
Post #27,517 by CRConrad 2/6/02 12:53:07 PM Reply	What're you talking about?!? I called a mind (yours) "good"!
Post #27,522 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 1:43:04 PM Reply	Thank you. But you did it through calling my opponent's mind "not good". I will not be the one to flame you, you see? But the flames will fly anyway, and whatever small possibilioty of understanding we currently have would be lost.
Post #27,529 by CRConrad 2/6/02 2:14:26 PM Reply	More like the other way around... I sez: What're you talking about?!? I called a mind (yours) "good"! To which Arkadiy replies: But you did it through calling my opponent's mind "not good". Naah. It's vicey-versy; Through calling your mind "good for programming", I left a door open for someone to take away the impression that I don't think Bryce's is as good... But one doesn't have to. So, if one does, perhaps that tells more about the one who does so than about what I actually said, eh? That's called the Fine Art of Implication. (Or was it tFAoInnuendo?) I will not be the one to flame you, you see? But the flames will fly anyway, and whatever small possibilioty of understanding we currently have would be lost. Lissen, Ark, when you've been around Bryce for as long as I have -- which is five years, now -- maybe you'll realise that there IS NO, however small, possibility of understanding with Bryce. And by then you'll certainly know in your bones that most people some times, and some people most of the time -- no prizes for guessing which category I think Bryce belongs to -- DESERVE to be flamed. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,540 by Arkadiy 2/6/02 3:16:12 PM Reply	Right you are. You did not say anything about his mind. I was wrong. I guess it does say something about me. As for Bryce, I've been around him as long as you, if not longer. I've seen hin appear at IWE. I guess his long sabbatical from these fora (yeah, yeah, I remember how it came about) made me hopeful again. And I have to admit it made him more civil.
Post #27,556 by CRConrad 2/6/02 6:30:26 PM Reply	Actually, you are right too... ...about that last point: And I have to admit it made him more civil. Too bad he hasn't become any less stubborn, or more open-minded! Hey, no, sorry: You have made some progress, Bryce. As for Bryce, I've been around him as long as you, if not longer. I've seen hin appear at IWE. As long, then, but not longer. Dang, really? Sorry, I must have plain forgotten you'd been around for that long. (I think I had, somehow, the impression you were too young for that.) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #27,563 by tablizer 2/6/02 6:54:59 PM Reply	not think like me == bad mind ? >> Lissen, Ark, when you've been around Bryce for as long as I have -- which is five years, now -- maybe you'll realise that there IS NO, however small, possibility of understanding with Bryce. << Other table fans who send me email seem to "click" with what I have to say. People who tended to hire me for contracts also liked tablizing things in many ways. It is a common human fault to conclude that: ! think like me == bad mind I am trying to overcome this built-in human bias by NOT suggesting that my approach is objectively better. It fits my head better, that is all I objectively claim (if that is not a contradiction). The examples on my website are simply bonus information where I try to communicate my dissatisfaction with OOP. I don't seeing you trying to overcome this bias in any way. (By the way, he may not have directly said it, but the implication is rather strong.) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #27,561 by tablizer 2/6/02 6:48:43 PM Reply	Walk Before Run >> Naah, he was probably born with a mind that was [good] for programming. That's what OOP is; a codification of "best practices" from pre-OO programming. << Then why do you CRC have a preference for Delphi over Smalltalk? Sure, I could probably buck up and go with the OOP flow to get by (I'll never be a star perhaps), but that still doesn't answer the question of why X is allegedly better than Y. BTW, if it is truely "best practices" then it should be relatively easy to show how these practices improve maintenance over the other practices by showing the keystrokes/mousestrokes, typing, etc, that programmers go thru. I know this is a rather crude metric, but in the end that is what it always boils down to from an objective standpoint. Grokability is generally not measurable in individuals, only in aggregate. Thus, what we have left is human body movements to perform various software maintanence tasks. Now, you may claim most people fit OOP better and the "left handers" just have to go along, but this is probably not true, and another topic. >> How about you (at least try to) demonstrate [sic] what's good about non-OO programming, in stead of going off on yet another silly rant on what's "bad" about OOP? << I have a whole website with small examples. True, small examples are of limited value, but when we do get into the nitty gritty, the differences often appear to subjective. Things like, "if you do it that way, then you risk busting this stuff over here." Reply: "Yeah, but that rarely happens to me practice, so why should I worry about preventing that?" IOW, what F's person A up may not F person B up. I have coined the term "mental ergonomics" for this. (Yeah yeah, I know, you don't like my coinages.) >> a full-fledged example, from basic requirements to (at least an outline of) working code. << IMO, we should walk before running. The Reports example is a relatively good starting place. After we beat that one to death, then we can work up to something bigger. Such a system could grow quite large anyhow as one tacks on one-off changes that the main framework cannot handle directly. Such one-off-ism is a primary complicator of biz software IME. You are also welcome to present a King Delphi example also. ________________ oop.ismad.com

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