Got any CDs? Or vinyl?

Post #271,812 by drewk 11/1/06 9:16:34 PM Reply	Got any CDs? Or vinyl? Why? They just reproduce the same performance over and over. But you listen to them, don't you? Any new music made with electronic instruments is by definition more original than a recording of traditional instruments. But you'd rather listen, for the hundredth time, to a cornet solo from 1899 than to a live performance on a Moog. Hey, if that's what gets you off. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #271,842 by Ashton 11/2/06 4:25:15 AM Reply	That dawg won't hunt Why? They just reproduce the same performance over and over. But you listen to them, don't you? Only the rich can travel to a live concert of choice, often (whatever the genre.) So? If I owned one-of-every recorded performance of my preferred composers -- I could today hear different performances, quite often enough. You buying? Any new music made with electronic instruments is by definition more original than a recording of traditional instruments. Sorry, Red Herring: 'new, original' is no virtue in itself. Why, The New is what drives mass overconsumption - and surely you didn't mean to imply that newness or #sales relates to quality(?) As to durability: I think that one has been answered with commendable brevity, elsewhere. I stated my concern - that all the marketing pressures re 'music' '06 are about corporate consolidation, homogenization and quantity sales. And as always - a %small of those sales are new performances of old music, say 50 - >500 years 'old'. Never mind the sales ratios: I reiterate that the culture is moving to full acceptance of recording over live. Caveat: that is, supposing that this culture and its appetites Is extant in 50 years. But you'd rather listen, for the hundredth time, to a cornet solo from 1899 than to a live performance on a Moog. I don't see many live Moog performances listed around these parts. There are many talented amateurs and some professional groups around here, from trios onward - and I attend those as my prefs. and purse dictate. Still beside the Point: with sufficient $ I could hear the Vienna Phil., take the SST and hear NY Phil. same day {OK - not any more..} etc. If Rich. I Was Talking About Tomorrow - the trend, the bizness of music-sales - in our culture which is biz-based from medicine to now, most every recreation has become commodity. I will not run out of options. Your kids might. Many today grow up never having heard an orchestra, and with no concept of what is possible, and damn little support for learning a non-electric instrument: from parents, schools, other adults (peers are of course equally unaware of all else but what the crowd has made fashionable this week - ever thus.) HTH, moi
Post #271,864 by pwhysall 11/2/06 10:01:13 AM Reply	Re: That dawg won't hunt Only the rich can travel to a live concert of choice Categorically untrue. My local pub does live music every Wednesday night, free of charge. Sure, the quality varies from the sublime to the opposite, and it does have a scarcity of original material, but still; it's live music. Classical concert tickets go from 15 quid on up; now, fifteen sheets isn't "free" but it's only three packets of smokes. All over the place there are live music events - "music in the park" type things, with proper bands and stuff. You're a musical snob, Ash. After all, I must be a philistine because I've got The Young Gods (100% sampled music) in my collection, and the Brandenburg Concertos (performed by the English Chamber Orchestra) - well, that's just a figment of my unable-to-appreciate-proper-music-as-defined-by-Ashton mind. Classical music (by which most people really mean Baroque, but hey ho) isn't the be-all and end-all of twanging strings to make noise. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,930 by drewk 11/2/06 9:43:06 PM Reply	Linguistic question ... from the sublime to the opposite ... Would that be "superlime"? Sounds like a good name for a college band. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #271,947 by Another Scott 11/2/06 10:33:18 PM Reply	Be quick! Steven Colbert's claimed "superstantial" already.
Post #271,979 by Ashton 11/3/06 12:42:22 AM Reply	Pshaw - UK != US Read me in my posts - for comprehension. You too, want to morph my pitch for the exposure of kids to The Whole Variety of musical instruments into.. a tired, tawdry Mine's Bigger cha cha cha Fie on thee and-thy-reductio (too.) My personal prefs for what a one Does with an instrument, after learning to play it - has nothing to do with Learning to Play It, you fuel. FWIW I enjoy quite more than the immortal-kind, from Brubeck through the alphabet to Zappa. Including a bitchin duo - a delightful pres; a pair I'd never have encountered randomly: jazz p\ufffd svenska Piano by Jan Johansson; Bass by Georg Riedel IMO, the opening visa fr\ufffdn \ufffdlvdalen is as haunting a variation on a simple riff.. as an achingly-pure Schubert song; could be admired by anyone from Copland to Zappa. Or Zbigniew Brzezinski. It doesn't need an orchestra, or even a trio. And that is/was fucking irrelevant: One More Time. As to UK/US: I envy the variety and quantity available on the Sceptered. In a nicely compact space, to boot. Why, on a Vincent: Lands End to John O'Groats is a mere bagatelle. And then, a stoned throw away by Chunnel: all That! (Now imagine SF --> NY) As to the effect of distances here: I almost had to spring for a RT to Toronto.. til Cthulhu's grace brought my particular music-god practically next-door. Clean living, I guess. So, don't rub it in.. ~30 yrs. ago it was a veritable coin flip whether I'd next be adopting a Queen and more -- (not just for brass bands, though that might.. have weighed a bit, subconsciously.) Not much / or often, here: for 15ish quid. 'Brass bands' here try to resemble a dance troupe, forever competing at-speed via some obscure formula whereby Look-at-ME far outweighs.. Hear-my-Musical talents. That's just my impression of perhaps a half-dozen remote viewings. All performances look like half-time at a football game. This is 'music'? (I have done my share of marching/'playing' and then playing music sitting down. I know the difference in sound capability first-hand. As does Admin.) Your Colliery bands (- their morphed remnants?) compete, as well. And while they too march-to their contests (usually? - I dunno): they are sitting down / not double-time running/dancing - when it's for Real. They are judged on their musical virtuosity. Just another difference in attitudes, I guess. I'm staying with My original point: If kids never get the experience of hearing All the instruments in a (Live!) orchestra, thus experience what soundscapes can be produced by humans on instruments needing no electrical help (and at best: trying out a one or two, later?): They Won't Know What They Missed in the formative years from 0-60. Of Course! there is other-than-orchestral music - and of course it varies from crap to brilliance. But if you learn how to play an instrument, you cannot fail to have educated much more than your intellect. (And you can play jazz or whatever - on Any of them - harp to contrabassoon, if that is your desire.) Wynton Marsalis won {whatever the #1 award} in both Classical and Jazz, one year. The Beatles made use of many instruments.. and the occasional sym. orch. group - dunno who else might have crossed that chasm - in Pop. ie I think it is rank-stupid for kids to be left with the sole impression that: The electric guitar / drum are "what an instrument is" and Pop is "what music is". If that's what a Snob is - color me Snob. And I am unanimous in that. Music has been too large a part of my existence, for me ever to accept that it's perfectly OK to tacitly watch its trivialization into elevator background noise -- and as repetitive ad-accompaniment. There are those who believe that 'music' has its origins in metaphysical space.. as a purposeful aid in meditation, introspection. Whether or not, that -- I've watched pure-crap greatly out-amplify the thoughtful, burying that within the cacophony of a near 24/7 noise field: now omnipresent, for those living in cities. I really don't care if this POV is unpopular here, but if I've expressed it badly - I'm sure I'll be corrected. Ta
Post #271,981 by pwhysall 11/3/06 1:17:45 AM Reply	For comprehension? swallows own tongue in disbelief Anyway, to business. Devil's advocate time: what makes a "live orchestra" so much more fantabulous than going down to the local playhouse/pub/working men's club/dubya-tee-eff-evAr and seeing four or half-a-dozen people play their stuff? What makes a live orchestra, playing someone else's (someone else, incidentally, who's almost certainly dead) stuff, so damn great? Where's the emotional connection between myself and, say, Tchaikovsky's first? What mental context exists for me to enjoy this music other than to go, "ooh, what a lot of notes, cleverly arranged, and with what exquisite skill they are played"? Compare and contrast Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F with the song "Every Breath You Take" by The Police. Which of these fine pieces of music involves the listener, takes them on an emotional journey and leaves them with more than they started with, to a degree greater than the other? Outwith the very small community of musical experts, snobs and aficianados, it's going to be the latter. Yes, Gershwin's got more instruments, more notes, more musical sophistication. Perhaps Gershwin is the blank emotional canvas onto which we can paint our own mental picture - or perhaps, just perhaps, there's such a thing as pop music with substance and merit of a type equivalent to but different from "classical" a.k.a. "proper" music. Yes, there's a lot of crap out there. There's a lot of crap everywhere. Sturgeon applies. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,988 by Ashton 11/3/06 4:38:31 AM Reply	No problem with your examples Just with your simplistic assertion that ~ it's all the same - there's no real difference in knowing about many possible choices and - not. Still, there are many more instruments to audition, in an orchestra -- whether that orchestra is playing Pops, marches, Gershwin or Grieg. There are reasons why orchestral music has survived for centuries, but there's not an iota of logical proof why this should be. All I say is - Lead the little tykes to Hear Those, then Just maybe.. choose one or a few to try out? while eschewing meddlesome pushiness == You Should ___ (Accept that some just won't find anything there of interest. Oh well.) That's the hook. The aim is that the kid will want to learn the basics, learn to read music - Want! to learn these skills. That s/he will want to make music, not just passively hear. That won't always happen; nobody knows why some have strong attractions to 'making music', innately - while others need some encouragement; why some will never care. (I know someone completely indifferent to 'music' - just the one, mind you.) But it will happen more often if - A) The kid sees and hears this great variety of instruments, what each sounds like - and how a lot of them sound "in c o n c e r t" == together. There's a need for some intelligent introduction - even if you don't have \ufffdLenny as the guide. B) The kid experiences (in any case) more than just the habits of his local tribe - inexperienced peers don't have a lot to teach, especially in the pack-culture now commencing pre-teen. Lots of wasted opportunity when running in a pack. Logic alone isn't enough in the pseudo-sciences of 'people' but there's ample evidence that music can indeed soothe (or prevent) the savage beast. But I suspect that, just maybe: the soothing-beast effect does not follow from a steady diet with screaming, in repeated sessions lasting many hours. (OTOH - maybe just-that can be a catharsis from internal demons -?- if the kid was already heading Postal. Nobody knows how to fix that one, either. Did the biology of lots of tykes just suddenly change or, was it something they heard? A lot, in recent years.) Oh - I expect that those who are experienced quantum- mechanics are called snobs by some auto- mechanics, too. Must be something in the water, when experience and lore is dissed, with such Pridefulness. Hey.. we have that MO in Our politicians: is it over There, too? \ufffd Lenny Bernstein's childrens concerts were always a sell-out. Nice if you lived in NY. There are flics: kids enthralled - camera can't make that up. (We don't know how often those-who-didn't-go .. were 'enthralled'. In any given month, or year.) I'll let you know re the Postal stuff, after enough autopsies are done following the next school assassinations: if they connect-up real soon - could the MRI-Mark III actually detect snatches of say, Go kill a bitch!.. Go kill a bitch!.. floating about in the cooling jelloware? That would be kewl data... I'd think.
Post #272,069 by admin 11/3/06 2:00:35 PM Reply	Make up your mind. This sub-thread started with you asserting that electronics aren't instruments. Now you're arguing for the children, which I doubt anyone here is really going to disagree with. But it's not what we started with, and it's not a response to "yes, an electronic instrument is still an instrument, and a versatile one at that". Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #272,111 by Ashton 11/3/06 6:04:13 PM Reply	It's the same one. This sub-thread started with you asserting that electronics aren't instruments. Read it again - I said that you don't Make Your Own Sounds. And because you don't - a lot of effort is 'saved' - to a detriment, described more fully. Now you're arguing for the children, which I doubt anyone here is really going to disagree with. But it's not what we started with, and it's not a response to "yes, an electronic instrument is still an instrument, and a versatile one at that". A synthesizer is an 'instrument' a composer can 'use'. Is it a performance by an artist -- when the saved program is later turned on? I amplified on that distinction - was it too many words? Lastly - Electronic corporations have marketed millions of, "press this button and the drum-set will produce A B C D ... Z" "Now the treble: select from menu." Yada yada. These toys are about neither 'composition' nor performance: they are interesting sound-producing toys. Who can say if their use will encourage a serious investigation of the well-tempered scale - how to read music; what is harmony? why does a minor chord evoke emotions of sadness or seem an unfinished phrase? - or, will these toys discourage bothering to make that effort. I said what I think the likely answer is. I think we've done Music? Love? - what ARE They?? No need to gore oxes or even, Bush Gores Self\ufffd
Post #272,114 by CRConrad 11/3/06 6:23:07 PM Reply	So, are you absolutely convinced that... ...a synth can't be used without engaging either the "record to memory" or the "replay from memory" functions? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #272,129 by admin 11/3/06 8:18:12 PM Reply	As Christian pointed out... You're mistaken in your conception of what an electronic instrument is and how it can be used. Now, if you want to argue against the exclusive use of them, fine... again, I won't disagree. That's not how we started down this road. Ashton, you have a habit of getting carried away with your rhetoric and painting an extremely wide swath with your brush of disdain. Don't act surprised when you get called on it. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #272,146 by Ashton 11/3/06 10:51:45 PM Reply	Always good advice, that Noted. Yes, I'm aware that you can dynamically key synths, though I can only guess at the latest versions and their versatility. I guess that is, 'playing that instrument'; the creativity in presetting, also in altering those programs (during, in real time) kinda rebuts my assertion that this isn't like "playing an instrument". I'll even have to concede that, just possibly there shall be new ways of performing which are not limited to those presets.. yet.. the utter determinism of any state-driven piece of electronics remains -NOT- equivalent to the kinds, extents of whole-body muscular + brain virtuosity whose drum I have been beating. That I cannot dissect that whole-performance well enough, doesn't particularly bother me; it's a task not unlike defining (music.) Simplest I can manage: natural instruments demand much more body-controlled nuance - in the act of performing - than these constructs do. Yes, there are similarities to the piano, of any keyboard; doubtless much has been improved since the Vorsetzer ('Sitter-in-front') piano-roll type robots: which required a human's original input natch, and included even-then some crude aspects of key/pedal pressures and rates. But the strings, woodwinds, brass cannot be mastered by any amount of electrical assistance (that I can envision, anyway) - and to me it is not particularly relevant that we can today create sounds indistinguishable from a 'piano chord'. "Creating <the sound itself> from a natural instrument" is simply a much more demanding whole-body experience than any of the above. I see no way around that difference with a real distinction. That is an art we must not jettison - is my POV. The field you are into is certainly music/sound; I simply cannot 'conflate!' whatever we call, 'performance with the New Instruments?' - with the level of involvement needed to achieve even a perfectly clear chromatic scale.. from a violin (or, oblig. trumpet, clarinet, yada.) These are Different pursuits. IIRC, late-50s the Japanese had cobbled together a vac-tube synthesizer of then: surprisingly realistic instrument sounds. It was claimed that banks could simulate an orchestral sound. I merely heard about this accomplishment at the lab, where we discussed the feat. (I should try to find out what that was called.) Similar issues arose in our discussion then. They aren't very different now. If I've missed something that can resolve these differences ...
Post #271,998 by boxley 11/3/06 8:46:29 AM Reply	"Every Breath You Take" is tard crap Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,999 by bepatient 11/3/06 8:49:28 AM Reply	Just couldn't let that one go, could you? Its certainly not their best, though. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,000 by pwhysall 11/3/06 8:49:41 AM Reply	What's the point of that post? Apart from the fact that you've flung your verbal faeces at this thread, that is? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #272,001 by bepatient 11/3/06 8:52:32 AM Reply	Spots on the wall by Hoo Flung Poo Illustrated by Jon Flushing. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #271,872 by Silverlock 11/2/06 11:05:54 AM Reply	Meh It's just notes strung together. It still takes a primate type to decide which notes go where. Lift your nose at something else. ----------------------------------------- Draft Obama [link\|http://www.draftobama.org/\|now].
Post #271,884 by admin 11/2/06 1:25:16 PM Reply	Brevity award goes here. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

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