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New It's the same one.
This sub-thread started with you asserting that electronics aren't instruments.

Read it again - I said that you don't Make Your Own Sounds. And because you don't - a lot of effort is 'saved' - to a detriment, described more fully.

Now you're arguing for the children, which I doubt anyone here is really going to disagree with. But it's not what we started with, and it's not a response to "yes, an electronic instrument is still an instrument, and a versatile one at that".


A synthesizer is an 'instrument' a composer can 'use'. Is it a performance by an artist -- when the saved program is later turned on? I amplified on that distinction - was it too many words?

Lastly -
Electronic corporations have marketed millions of, "press this button and the drum-set will produce A B C D ... Z"
"Now the treble: select from menu." Yada yada.

These toys are about neither 'composition' nor performance: they are interesting sound-producing toys. Who can say if their use will encourage a serious investigation of the well-tempered scale -
how to read music;
what is harmony?
why does a minor chord evoke emotions of sadness or seem an unfinished phrase?
- or, will these toys discourage bothering to make that effort.
I said what I think the likely answer is.

I think we've done Music? Love? - what ARE They??
No need to gore oxes or even, Bush Gores Self\ufffd

New So, are you *absolutely convinced* that...
...a synth can't be used *without* engaging either the "record to memory" or the "replay from memory" functions?


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603|Jehovah]
New As Christian pointed out...
You're mistaken in your conception of what an electronic instrument is and how it can be used.

Now, if you want to argue against the exclusive use of them, fine... again, I won't disagree. That's not how we started down this road.

Ashton, you have a habit of getting carried away with your rhetoric and painting an extremely wide swath with your brush of disdain. Don't act surprised when you get called on it.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Always good advice, that
Noted.

Yes, I'm aware that you can dynamically key synths, though I can only guess at the latest versions and their versatility. I guess that is, 'playing that instrument'; the creativity in presetting, also in altering those programs (during, in real time) kinda rebuts my assertion that this isn't like "playing an instrument".

I'll even have to concede that, just possibly there shall be new ways of performing which are not limited to those presets.. yet.. the utter determinism of any state-driven piece of electronics remains -NOT- equivalent to the kinds, extents of whole-body muscular + brain virtuosity whose drum I have been beating.

That I cannot dissect that whole-performance well enough, doesn't particularly bother me; it's a task not unlike defining (music.)

Simplest I can manage: natural instruments demand much more body-controlled nuance - in the act of performing - than these constructs do. Yes, there are similarities to the piano, of any keyboard; doubtless much has been improved since the Vorsetzer ('Sitter-in-front') piano-roll type robots: which required a human's original input natch, and included even-then some crude aspects of key/pedal pressures and rates.

But the strings, woodwinds, brass cannot be mastered by any amount of electrical assistance (that I can envision, anyway) - and to me it is not particularly relevant that we can today create sounds indistinguishable from a 'piano chord'.

"Creating <the sound itself> from a natural instrument" is simply a much more demanding whole-body experience than any of the above. I see no way around that difference with a real distinction. That is an art we must not jettison - is my POV.

The field you are into is certainly music/sound; I simply cannot 'conflate!' whatever we call, 'performance with the New Instruments?' - with the level of involvement needed to achieve even a perfectly clear chromatic scale.. from a violin (or, oblig. trumpet, clarinet, yada.) These are Different pursuits.




IIRC, late-50s the Japanese had cobbled together a vac-tube synthesizer of then: surprisingly realistic instrument sounds. It was claimed that banks could simulate an orchestral sound. I merely heard about this accomplishment at the lab, where we discussed the feat. (I should try to find out what that was called.) Similar issues arose in our discussion then. They aren't very different now.


If I've missed something that can resolve these differences ...

     Zappa Plays Zappa tonight - (bepatient) - (74)
         I've never been a big Zappa fan... - (ChrisR) - (68)
             Re: I've never been a big Zappa fan... - (Ashton) - (67)
                 Alas, here again we differ - (bepatient) - (66)
                     Re: Alas, here again we differ - not so much as usual - (Ashton) - (65)
                         One thing I doubt sincerely... - (bepatient) - (64)
                             /me adds a healthy does of Philistinism to the debate - (pwhysall) - (63)
                                 human who plays an instrument not a computer -NT - (boxley) - (62)
                                     ..sub-tul, Box - Nice One! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         have to whine that I own a lp or 2 of chick's stuff - (boxley)
                                     Why is a computer not an instrument? - (pwhysall) - (59)
                                         It is. And an artist on that instrument is equally talented. - (bepatient)
                                         It is. Like a hand grinder is an instrument. - (Ashton) - (57)
                                             Wow, what incredible bias. - (admin) - (31)
                                                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (Steve Lowe)
                                                 Yes, I am biased: I worship The Muse, not mindless ditties. - (Ashton) - (29)
                                                     hard to do an improv ax rip with a computer keyboard - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         ICLRPD - (imqwerky)
                                                     And again: - (admin) - (26)
                                                         Tastes differ: hence "tastes," not "absolutes" - (rcareaga) - (23)
                                                             Re: Tastes differ: hence "tastes," not "absolutes" - (admin) - (22)
                                                                 You can read between the lines or - - (Ashton) - (21)
                                                                     So WTF *are* you gibbering about, then? - (CRConrad) - (20)
                                                                         Hey.. welcome back to Normal, CRC and.. Pshaw - (Ashton) - (19)
                                                                             What collections? - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                                 Well... - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                                                     *Whose* collection are we talking about now, and since... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                                         collections? - 'playlists'. Dast I not use a synonym? - (Ashton)
                                                                             Is that Dylan you are asking for? - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                                                 Umm, actually - - (Ashton) - (13)
                                                                                     thats cheating - (boxley) - (6)
                                                                                         (Gracias) - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                                                             On the pop songs of your yout - (drewk) - (2)
                                                                                                 IreadLRPD (new thread) - (lincoln)
                                                                                                 {Ssshhh!} - wanna destroy an entire cha cha line - (Ashton)
                                                                                         I like the police - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                                                                             Dunno. - (Another Scott)
                                                                                     Interesting - (bepatient) - (5)
                                                                                         Holy Herbert L. Clarke, Beep - - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                                                             Actually, my then musical interest was Herb Alpert. - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                                                 Yummy album cover. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                     Oh yes. That was part of the attraction. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Dupe -NT - (bepatient)
                                                         Hey, I stay the course - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             Tarring with a broad brush. - (admin)
                                             I don't think so. - (static) - (5)
                                                 Heh - elderly ensoniq hardware - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                     I have an ESQ-1 - (admin) - (1)
                                                         I have one of those too - (tuberculosis)
                                                     yeah, we noticed :-) -NT - (boxley)
                                                     I sold mine years ago. - (static)
                                             Got any CDs? Or vinyl? - (drewk) - (18)
                                                 That dawg won't hunt - (Ashton) - (17)
                                                     Re: That dawg won't hunt - (pwhysall) - (14)
                                                         Linguistic question - (drewk) - (1)
                                                             Be quick! Steven Colbert's claimed "superstantial" already. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                         Pshaw - UK != US - (Ashton) - (11)
                                                             For comprehension? *swallows own tongue in disbelief* - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                 No problem with your examples - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                     Make up your mind. - (admin) - (4)
                                                                         It's the same one. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                                             So, are you *absolutely convinced* that... - (CRConrad)
                                                                             As Christian pointed out... - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                 Always good advice, that - (Ashton)
                                                                 "Every Breath You Take" is tard crap -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                     Just couldn't let that one go, could you? - (bepatient)
                                                                     What's the point of that post? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                         Spots on the wall - (bepatient)
                                                     Meh - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                         Brevity award goes here. -NT - (admin)
         Wow - (bepatient) - (4)
             I'm glad he finished the show - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                 The lit cigarette show! - (bepatient) - (2)
                     Actually, it was a nickel - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                         Ah, theres one... - (bepatient)

Three cheers for literacy... I feel sick.
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