Re: I've never been a big Zappa fan...

Post #271,516 by Ashton 10/28/06 8:51:19 PM Reply	Re: I've never been a big Zappa fan... Moi: yes and no. (The accident of knowing Ian Underwood allowed me entr\ufffde to hear them practice, in Laurel Canyon - '70-'72ish. And yes, even then I realized than many would have Killed for that.. Such is the crap shoot of real Liff.) Your perception would follow - at least at that time, most (all?) his band members were classically trained; Z would 'nod' and all would instantly transpose some passage; there were other 'signs'. All could bloody well read any music.. and play other genres. It was apparent that Z was no ordinary 'let's start a garage band'; I rated him authentic Musician - merely way-orthogonal to my roots. A one could converse with FZ on other topics - an obviously sharp, agile mind. Apparently, as with Ian: magnetic attraction, later coalescing into the nuclear Strong Force (see, physics Is Everywhere.) A few vignettes I've already mentioned here. Ian had come -almost directly- from having played a Mozart piano concerto at Hertz Hall (Berkeley) --> to audition for FZ; "My name is IU and I want to play with you.." IIRC. Guess that story is Out there in the Z lore. While then (as now) my neurons were wired quite for the Other music, I could always appreciate the satire in the lyrics rather than.. humming them-dirty-songs. Falsetto in, "She's Leaving Home" ... and others ~ Uncle Meat times did have some catchiness, even por moi. (Otherwise - know little of the vast repertoire (Did see 200 Motels.)) Carrion
Post #271,522 by bepatient 10/28/06 9:35:42 PM 10/28/06 10:21:54 PM Reply	Alas, here again we differ As I am indeed a fan. There is a certain dry sarcasm to his lyric that appeals to me...and in some instance it is his commentary that draws me but those instances are in the minority. Your observation on the talent is where my "fandom" begins. The quality of musician he surrounded himself with through the years was simply astounding. Terry Bozzio, Jean-Luc Ponty, Steve Vai, Adrian Belew, Tommy Mars...the list is long. Hell, maybe its simply because nobody else has the balls to compose something going from 4/4 to 17. Seriously, there is something in Zappa's catalog for everyone should they care to look. But his kinship to jazz with a structure that only exists in classical attracts me. And yes, Imric...I have a copy of Hot Rats :-) I have my concert ticket from seeing Frank. Its signed (and his bodyguard didn't punch me in the nose, yay). His son did him proud musically...but watching Frank direct his musical traffic is something I will remember forever. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient Oct. 28, 2006, 10:21:54 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #271,529 by Ashton 10/29/06 3:03:25 AM Reply	Re: Alas, here again we differ - not so much as usual re. Zappa. Probably, had I paid more attention to his other and later material, I'd have found more to like in those other experiments. Experimental he Was. Still, I don't think the possibilities of an orchestra can be squeezed down to 'band' level - a few electric guitars, electric pianos and (especially - though not with Z) that which I call overblown-saxophones. Just a matter of what my jelloware instinctively defines as 'music', on the well-tempered-scale VS ___ Not. (Nobody inculcated 'music appreciation' into this particular jelloware. It came with the genes.) Lately though, I note that the offending saxes are quite outdistanced by the devolution of drumming - to.. this manically-repetitive 'beat', as might as well Be machine generated. Certain 'pulse rates' (Ex: heartbeat-like rep rates) are more than unpleasant to my hearing; they positively induce Anger, if I'm in a position where I cannot distance self from the sound. There is no intellectual analysis involved in the instinctive response. (That mechanical drum background is also about all that Can be heard through walls / or out the windows of your local whomp-whomp >Look-at-Me!!< car with tinted windows, cruising the parking lots in slo-mo.) But then, I'm in a tiny minority, well below the n$B Market being fed; why, I had to walk out of a Chick Corea 'concert', when his incessant noodling apparently crossed into the "Too Many Notes signifying Nothing" realm of aural insult ~ kinda like the Patrician thought about Mozart?! (irony is so __ ) except that comparing CC with Mozart is too near ludicrous to support even the cleverest ironical construct. Glad you find much more that satisfies; I expect my playlist would drive you as far off the wall as Mr. Corea manages with me. I'll have to wait out the next few decades. (After all, if electricity does come to be in short supply, feeding only the Gated Compounds - who knows.. hand-built acoustic instruments will have to come back. And people relearn how to play them, rediscover pianissimo as well.) Then.. Ah'll be Baaack.
Post #271,553 by bepatient 10/29/06 8:26:07 PM Reply	One thing I doubt sincerely... I expect my playlist would drive you as far off the wall as Mr. Corea manages with me. I certainly don't think so...unless your repertoire consists of gansta rap and Conway Twitty ballads I think you'd have a hard time selecting something I didn't like...or couldn't appreciate. Chick does have a tendency to overindulge. But that's part of the charm:-) Mozart, at times, might have too many notes. But I like them all. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #271,570 by pwhysall 10/30/06 6:18:21 AM Reply	/me adds a healthy does of Philistinism to the debate Who the hell is Chick Corea? goes back to listening to The Coconut Monkeyrocket Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,581 by boxley 10/30/06 9:47:32 AM Reply	human who plays an instrument not a computer Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,656 by Ashton 10/30/06 10:42:48 PM Reply	..sub-tul, Box - Nice One! Proving again that, all generalizations are false. Indeed, Mr. Corea does flagellate a helpless genuine piano. It's the thought that counts; it's just easier to create fluff when the CPU makes autopilot-mode so easy (?)
Post #271,661 by boxley 10/30/06 11:21:06 PM Reply	have to whine that I own a lp or 2 of chick's stuff course it doesnt match against my duke ellington or doc severensen stuff but is interesting of itself. coarse nothing matches my johnny winters who early deep purple acdc and one or 2 ICP tunes. tis the ear, not the musician. Did he play it correctly for you? if not twiddle, if so buy more unless SO's get to dragging you to insufferable concerts, the only defense is to make them go to rasslin matches. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,700 by pwhysall 10/31/06 11:33:53 AM Reply	Why is a computer not an instrument? I've got GarageBand, but I'm not The Chemical Brothers Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,746 by bepatient 10/31/06 10:03:06 PM Reply	It is. And an artist on that instrument is equally talented. However, it has also led to the simplification for some of lifting the artistic work of others...and that can make some folks cranky. Not that much different from DJ sampling in my opinion. And largely my "issue" with rap and hip hop. There are some very creative artists...and there are those that sample classics, throw in a few motherf***ers...and call it their own. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}*
Post #271,760 by Ashton 11/1/06 6:59:50 AM Reply	It is. Like a hand grinder is an instrument. But not like an Amati is an instrument. If you code enough furlongs in a fortnight - you might be able to get some transistors and transducers to fool the ear into thinking But no electric piano shall capture the nuance of a Rubenstein (in his 90s, even) using his ANALOG body, all the keys/felts/linkage + pedals - to create an always slightly-different performance of some work of art. And find later, with experience - even more interpretations in tempo, dynamics, expression - of that same work. The quality and accidental? individual acoustic qualities of the piano will interact with the skill, experience and mood of that human. Computers do not 'interact' with humans, except in fantasy. (And no Sony trumpet-playing robot\ufffd shall ever be mistaken for Sergei or Wynton or ____.) Fuzz.. Tone.. says. it. all. == mechanical engineering. - put in some noise Here ... switch on some distortion There ... invert, start a Fourier scan for Variation 2. Yep, you can make sounds. (Someday, I wot - even at dynamic ranges that don't begin at \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd and end at \ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd\ufffd) Music, like Love demands heart + human body in tactile connection with an Instrument - human voice or other, solo or in combination. Sorry, but - a 'computer' is a universal machine. That's All it is. It can do lots of handy bookkeeping kinda things but it cannot 'capture' human touch, cannot 'produce' but merely approximately-reproduce. It ain't even Eliza-grade at 'making music' - unless the word music were to suffer the same degradation as innovation has. IMO. (You asked) (Didn't we already do the It's an analog world, in real life dance?)
Post #271,768 by admin 11/1/06 10:43:41 AM Reply	Wow, what incredible bias. 1) Computers are most often used in conjunction with keyboards as input. Often with additional ANALOG inputs not possible on a piano (like the breath control I used with my old Yamaha -- excellent form of additional input for a keyboard-playing trombonist). 2) ANY instrument, electronic or otherwise, is as good/bad/useful/soulful as the person playing it. Denigrating something because it's made of silicon instead of wood is asinine, Ashton, and your prejuidice is showing. Music, like Love demands heart + human body in tactile connection with an Instrument - human voice or other, solo or in combination. Absolutely. And there is no difference between that instrument being analog vs. digital when played in the manner you just described, excepting that the computer allows a greater range of expression and control than is possible with a simple acoustic instrument. Speaking from personal experience (piano, trombone, keyboard, and now computer), the computer gives me, the hobbyist musician doing this for the love of music that I can create, greatly expanded horizons with the addition of an "orchestra in a box". I can compose and arrange a full 100-piece orchestra if I want. Where else would I get that opportunity? You've demonstrated many times in the past the extremely narrow prejuidice you have where music is concerned. As someone who enjoys classical, opera, swing, blues, rock, techno, and yes even gangsta rap, I find your views parochial in the extreme. Classical was simply the techno of its time: structured, repetitive, and open to occasional flashes of brilliance when the composer stepped beyond the norm. And if you think that my music is somehow less meaningful than that of someone using brass or wood, merely because the medium is different than that which you hold highest, then you, sir, can go fuck yourself. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #271,778 by Steve Lowe 11/1/06 1:12:11 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #271777 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=271777\|ICLRPD] -- Steve [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu]
Post #271,798 by Ashton 11/1/06 6:22:04 PM Reply	Yes, I am biased: I worship The Muse, not mindless ditties. Yes of Course - such matters have no One True 'answer'. But didactic is a most popular form of assertion here, I believe. ;-) (And, as to the catholicism of my musical tastes - you missed the obvious: Philip Glass, and even PDQ Bach, Switched-on Bach et al. Still, within these 'on medium Only' works: no human is required to [or indeed can..] (re-)produce a 'concert'.) Who could argue against the usefulness of a synthesizer, capable of simulating all the orchestral voices - to a composer? (Aside from the practical $matter of the inaccessibility of an orchestra to try things out -- its educational value to any composer is self evident.) Now then.. once this material is saved to whatever medium - where occurs the human performance? - thus, where is the 'art' in that performance. I submit that virtuosity in composition, rendered to machine language and replayed: eliminates the virtuosity of the performer on an 'instrument' in real. time. We trivialize that Difference only at the peril of long-term emotional health Note that this caveat does not ignore the techno of the pipe organ, or the 'mechanical engineering' which has improved most instruments (except strings.. since the 18th century Italians?). Even voice training has profited from new bio knowledge, techno to (even) inspect vocal chords and suggest.. techniques for overcoming problems. And BTW - I too have used Music Minus One records, as supply a recorded accompaniment to a work / you supply the solo part. Now the fuzziness of this whole unresolvable matter arises: If I play the record on-stage and play the solo part.. isn't that still a performance by a human? I too can enjoy 'synthesized sound'. But I maintain that the difficulty of mastering a physical instrument (or one's voice) - creates, over a long time, infinitely more than a facility in playing scales, then actual works: it alters the emotional center of the performer, all along -- and it makes every performance a unique event. {I assert: it also humanizes, as do few pursuits left to us as commodity worker-bees.} If techno eventually diminishes both the fact of such performances of Music by virtuosos, as well as any-much audience for the Performing Arts -- we'll then be All-Repo, All the Time. IMhO. And that - is a fate we are already previewing, here in the Land of the (mostly) Crass. Today's 'music INDUSTRY' [think also: medical INDUSTRY?] has vastly more to do with slightly morphing previous (thus safe) shallow ditties into new Sales of the 300th variation on a tired riff: than with all historical ideas of what music is about, and Why humans needed to make such sounds, Themselves. Music earned and required Attention! 24/7 Muzak, by whatever gadget attached to ears - like Tee Vee - renders music down to triviality; to a purely passive experience. Muzak lowers consciousness. I call that, too: child abuse. 'Virtuosity' ... an ocean of meanings. Or, in the words of Barry Goldwater ~~ Extremism in the pursuit of The Muse is no vice! Carrion, you dastardly Mechano-set macerating Muse-mauler er, \ufffd
Post #271,801 by boxley 11/1/06 6:58:21 PM Reply	hard to do an improv ax rip with a computer keyboard some of the best tunes and worst will be live, improvisation at its best, look woods and ritchards can rip on each others riffs and never play the tune the same way twice. Cant do that with a keyboard. As for your other statement, if I could do that I would never leave the house. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,819 by imqwerky 11/1/06 10:33:16 PM Reply	ICLRPD ...if I could do that I would never leave the house. Smile, Amy [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman\|Pics of the Family]
Post #271,827 by admin 11/1/06 11:10:55 PM Reply	And again: Don't tell me my appreciation of music is flawed because it's different than yours. Yes, the Canadian Brass or Perlman in concert are great. So is Tool or , for the same and different reasons. "Mindless ditty" just tells me that you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and can't be bothered to learn. The Muse that you "worship" takes a lot more forms than your narrow mind can appreciate. There's a lot more to today's music than the music industry. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #271,838 by rcareaga 11/2/06 1:55:41 AM Reply	Tastes differ: hence "tastes," not "absolutes" admin fumes to Ashton: "Don't tell me my appreciation of music is flawed because it's different than yours." I looked in vain for a statement in post 271760 that your appreciation of music was "flawed." Preferences differ. You're welcome to your tropisms, as Ashton is welcome to his. Takes all kinds, et cetera. Simple duration has a way of sorting these things out. I suspect that at the end of your son's life (may clean living, advances in geriatric medicine and the failure of civilization to crash messily this century all contribute to making that day far distant!) Tool will be largely forgotten and Scarlatti, say, will not be. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #271,882 by admin 11/2/06 1:19:40 PM Reply	Re: Tastes differ: hence "tastes," not "absolutes" "I worship The Muse, not mindless ditties". Read between the lines for the disdain, Rand. The music I enjoy to listen to and create isn't music, it's all just "mindless ditties". Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #271,989 by Ashton 11/3/06 5:27:56 AM Reply	You can read between the lines or - just insert ^s to imagineer your own paranoid suppositions - of what I might imagine You listen to. I don't recall assigning playlists to anyone, near or far. I aver that there are mindless ditties Out There. That they perfuse every soap opera, elevator, advertainment and pharm-chem ad + too-much-to-list. Repetitive pieces of these can also be found in some songs I have heard, described by others as, 'popular'. That means: not within all songs written in the last n-years, lest 'some' be misoverestimated. (Unclear if Louie Louie qualifies; I didn't listen long enough.) If You listen mainly to those, then.. I do not apologize for the inference. Surely not for any inferences not made. Just as.. I don't listen exlusively to orchestral music or opera arias (and you don't know What my playlist is like) ... ditto I re. Yours. {sheesh}
Post #272,005 by CRConrad 11/3/06 9:18:05 AM Reply	So WTF are you gibbering about, then? Because your jumping to "mindless ditties" as opposed to "Teh Muse", when the guys were talking about digitronic instruments as opposed to banging on pots or scratching the guts of dead sheep, that had to come from somewhere, didn't it? If you really hadn't meant to impugn the tastes of those who Dared Oppose You On Matters Of Culture, then why the fuck bring up any "mindless ditties" at all, in the frigging first place?!? It would behoove even you, Ash(, IMnshO), to once in a blue moon just fucking apologize when you've insulted people. In stead, I mean, of this pseudo-backing-down -- without ever admitting any fault, of course! -- that isn't even a real retraction, if one takes the trouble to parse your gibberish carefully. But what do I know; I'm just a Nekulturnyj prole, right...? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #272,106 by Ashton 11/3/06 5:47:47 PM Reply	Hey.. welcome back to Normal, CRC and.. Pshaw How you can imagine that I believe that the known and esteemed survivors of the venue of-the-LRPD -- would LISTEN to the mindless pap I've referenced! - can only come from the tetched, a bout of palsy? or perhaps .. this local election's proximity to the end of the Western world. But you don't live here. Still, you're closer to the ME. Would I, for example, suppose.. that those carefully assembled 5-50K playlists would contain a single copy of ... Tiny Tim? the Monkees? Levi Lullaby? Why would You supose that I would suppose JUNK? Why would you suppose that I DON'T suppose that - many contain the complete discography of Zappa, for one.. and maybe even a cylinder with some Glenn Gould. My rant was about the omission from todays' yout consciousness of [what I said] and what I think is being lost, for that fact. Did I need to list the cream of the crop, pop that has survived from the '60s to now == the Test of 'longevity', lest someone's taste-buds feel I have stomped heavily upon >Them<? Would that counter the assertion of there being a lot of mindless ditties Out There? I say again: there's a lot of repetitive mindless pap out there. You'll have to do a better job with the Posting Rulez, then, o arbiter of nasty suppositions. Because even if I despised 98% of all the stuff on all the local playlists -??- So. What. Would I force a single armed partisan to sit through a side of Sergei Nakariakov? Why do I have to accommodate 'tastes' - everyone's a Critic. Find where I've invaded a thread and said: this cut you like? it's really Stupid, and I know you'd want to know that, so you could become Better. I'm insulted that y'all don't have a. single. copy. of NO LIMIT So then, my music must be CRAP, eh? Don't bother to apologize.. When do I get to be pissed and fix Your collections?
Post #272,108 by CRConrad 11/3/06 5:56:12 PM Reply	What collections? Yes, now you know TWO of that very rare kind of people. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #272,113 by Ashton 11/3/06 6:18:26 PM Reply	Well... I'm not ackshully averse to that handiness... just lazy. If I stumble into a copacetic format with more dynamic range, less distortion than mp3 .. I've a few hundred pounds of LPs, tapes, CDs I'd love to cram into a 2.5" HD. Except I'd procrastinate at the record-washing, the VU-meter scanning.. you know: the Work. I'd still listen via speakers, home or car. But what If I found the convenience IS addictive, gets to 12/7: hypocrisy? or smash-with-hammer, I guess.
Post #272,115 by CRConrad 11/3/06 6:26:29 PM Reply	Whose collection are we talking about now, and since... ...when, and why? And you can't even SEE how you tend to twist and turn whole threads of discussion, by answering something else that what you were asked? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #272,138 by Ashton 11/3/06 9:58:40 PM Reply	collections? - 'playlists'. Dast I not use a synonym? So I presumed you meant something like: I don't Have a collection / playlist. Much or nothing might be read into the entire triviality, I guess. And no, no twisting motion was involved.
Post #272,122 by bepatient 11/3/06 7:14:51 PM Reply	Is that Dylan you are asking for? Love minus Zero / No Limit??? Monkees? Tiny Tim? Check. Levi Lullaby, sadly, no. I don't think I need much fixin. I also have the complete discography of Jean-Michel Jarre. I would love for my kids to learn to appreciate it. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,141 by Ashton 11/3/06 10:10:17 PM Reply	Umm, actually - [link\|http://www.nakariakov.com/\| here]. Then 'recordings'. Guess I shoulda surmised that it's such a neat title - it must have had lots of takers. Anyway, when you've received your copy - let me know, so I can adjust the stops for the Playlist Marauders, those fun-loving two-wheeled folks who drive around, checking that playlists are sufficiently catholic. Or need correcting. (Dey works fer Da Muse, y'know..) :-\ufffd
Post #272,144 by boxley 11/3/06 10:44:42 PM Reply	thats cheating exposing these poor fools who enjoy scat like "the police" to real music. feh, I always remember how that cd took my son away from the dire world into a place of beauty, and myself enjoying same. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #272,148 by Ashton 11/3/06 11:19:16 PM Reply	(Gracias) Had no idea 'how' he'd respond to that jewel.. but I hoped that the er Muse would handle all of that. Quite satisfying to hear that both of you enjoyed that, pretty-far-from a combo sound. It seems bitchin for any horn player, of whatever aims. For that matter, had I magically heard That CD, via the grace of Cthulhu + Twilight Zone, at age 15ish? - I really do not know if I would have hung it up? or re-doubled [??] 'Awesome' - another murdered word. We still Had it! then. I was never much interested in the pop songs of yout, but noticed that many of my cohorts would try to emulate those sounds. I didn't - OK maybe Bunny Berrigan.. and can't get into the heads of those who thought they were .. [enough?] But was lucky enough to have a few cohorts; one to play duets with. That suggested I was maybe not all That odd. (Not that I would have been any less stubborn, if solo ;-) Thanks for the fine words, A. "A - you're adorable.. B - you're so beautiful.." cha..cha.. cha..
Post #272,176 by drewk 11/4/06 11:42:38 AM Reply	On the pop songs of your yout "A - you're adorable.. B - you're so beautiful.." cha..cha.. cha.. I don't remember where I heard this, but ... 95% of all pop songs are about one of these five themes: I wish I was fucking you. Hey, you wanna fuck? I'm so glad I'm fucking you. I wish I was still fucking you. Fuck you. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #272,251 by lincoln 11/5/06 4:41:25 PM Reply	IreadLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #272250 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=272250\|IreadLRPD] lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com\|contact me]
Post #272,351 by Ashton 11/6/06 5:23:07 AM Reply	{Ssshhh!} - wanna destroy an entire cha cha line I remember a wise old wag (or was it a hag?) reminding, I like you! == I am Like You. And much follows, (even without the complications of not knowing self or other - nearly as well as it seemed.) I think the whole jelloware imagination thing is made plain by those lugubrious lyrics to that ancient chestnut, On Top of Old Smoky. Hearing that at camp, as a tyke - and not knowing words like lugubrious or petulant to help, but acquainted with the blame-game - I distinctly remember wondering how this star-double-crossed pair thing came about. (And why were people singing songs! about this Mess?) But today, being older and wiser as well as humble and all, I've at last figured out that the problem is -
Post #272,201 by tuberculosis 11/4/06 3:50:50 PM 8/21/07 6:29:16 AM Reply	I like the police Actually, I mostly like early police - don't much care for the easy listening hits like every breath you suck or tea in the sahara. Do like synchronicity II, walking in your footsteps, most of ghosts, nearly everything before. And I don't care for solo Sting at all. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:29:16 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #272,202 by Another Scott 11/4/06 4:10:30 PM Reply	Dunno. Some of his later stuff is pretty good in small doses. There's some song of his about Bali (that I can not find anywhere I've looked) that I thought was very poinient especially after the 2002 bombing there. Cheers, Scott. (Who agrees that the early/middle Police stuff was probably his best.)
Post #272,149 by bepatient 11/3/06 11:28:18 PM Reply	Interesting Trumpet was my first instrument. Until braces did us part. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,353 by Ashton 11/6/06 5:35:57 AM Reply	Holy Herbert L. Clarke, Beep - Umm yeah, braces are what I should have had, too; aside from astronomical cost for a single parent way-back, as ever - prospect of that loss was more compelling (at least to me.) An early lesson in irony of the usual sort - in retrospect: if bite could have been corrected, I'd likely have been a better player. That facility might have led to - - See, everything Does follow from that single butterfly in Tasmania. And we're constantly lectured to .. to plan Ahead?!?
Post #272,368 by bepatient 11/6/06 9:58:17 AM Reply	Actually, my then musical interest was Herb Alpert. Whipped Cream and other Favorites. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,377 by Another Scott 11/6/06 10:46:27 AM Reply	Yummy album cover.
Post #272,401 by bepatient 11/6/06 12:59:21 PM Reply	Oh yes. That was part of the attraction. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,403 by bepatient 11/6/06 12:59:27 PM 11/6/06 12:59:50 PM Reply	Dupe Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew} Edited by bepatient Nov. 6, 2006, 12:59:50 PM EST Expand All History
Post #271,839 by Ashton 11/2/06 3:59:04 AM Reply	Hey, I stay the course to coin a phrase. It doesn't matter what my prefs are; this is about the declining interest, encouragement early-on -- for kids to learn how to play a musical instrument which needs no electricity, and which thus continues a thread to prehistory. And readies their tiny nascent minds for the ephemeral -- not just a whole lotta LOUD. As to contemporary critics of 'the New', in this case a tad back in time: Early '70s I witnessed, at the Fillmore - some bands du jour, vamping for an appearance of the Mothers. They/Zappa were so pissed at the general demeanor / screams for Louie, Louie - and at the crappy quality of the warm-up bands that night, that Z. said to the crowd only (IIRC) ~"... so ... you like Louie, Louie, eh?" They then proceeded to an accelerated lampoon of LL, across several transpositions and variations. An expected ~ hour show ended at ~ 22 min. They essentially walked out, IIRC without a word. Hey, if Zappa doesn't know junk music when he abides it? ... never mind my poor powers to add or detract. But it still doesn't matter what genres I prefer. Or you. (Some Celtic does it for me + ____ ... in small doses.)
Post #271,883 by admin 11/2/06 1:22:55 PM Reply	Tarring with a broad brush. Duncan plays piano and keyboard, and composes on a computer. And your disdain for things electrical is unsupported. An electric guitar is no less a vehicle for the sublime than a grand piano. It's just different. So I get the feeling that for you it really is just about tastes, because your narrow-minded view of what is "Music" isn't supported by what I see of what can be done with electrical and electronic instruments. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #271,806 by static 11/1/06 8:23:10 PM Reply	I don't think so. My musical instrument of choice is currently an [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq_TS_10\|Ensoniq TS-10]. The really interesting thing about Ensoniq synthesizors is that it didn't take long using them to realize that they were really specialist computers, designed for making music. I've been playing my TS-10 and before that an older Ensoniq synth, an EPS16+, for many years. But it's only in the last 18 months that I've begun to understand that part of the skill I bring to music-making is understanding how my synth is programmed, and knowing when and why to change sound patches. Sure, it's a digital instrument, but therein lies it's flexibility. I've persisted with elderly Ensoniq hardware because the hardware engineers and, significantly, the programmers of Ensoniq were also lovers of music and worked very hard at creating specialist computers that can sound absolutely genuine. And they do. I think you're trying to imbue the word 'computer' with some of the meanings of 'artificial intelligence'. That's a mistake. My synth is a computer, but I still have to control it to make the music. It can't perform new music on it's own; at best it can playback something previously recorded. Wade. "Don't give up!"
Post #271,814 by tuberculosis 11/1/06 10:01:19 PM 8/21/07 6:16:25 AM Reply	Heh - elderly ensoniq hardware Dude - I've still got an original Mirage. Yes I do still use it. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:16:25 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #271,824 by admin 11/1/06 11:03:08 PM Reply	I have an ESQ-1 Right now it's under the bed due to lack of room, but I do plan on bringing it out soon. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #271,830 by tuberculosis 11/1/06 11:45:58 PM 8/21/07 6:17:28 AM Reply	I have one of those too I use the Mirage as a disk drive for the ESQ-1 [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer] Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:17:28 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #271,826 by boxley 11/1/06 11:09:43 PM Reply	yeah, we noticed :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,829 by static 11/1/06 11:39:05 PM Reply	I sold mine years ago. I wasn't using it anymore and I'd already upgraded to an EPS16+. Interestingly, I bought an EPS16+ off someone who was upgrading to an ASR-10. Wade. "Don't give up!"
Post #271,812 by drewk 11/1/06 9:16:34 PM Reply	Got any CDs? Or vinyl? Why? They just reproduce the same performance over and over. But you listen to them, don't you? Any new music made with electronic instruments is by definition more original than a recording of traditional instruments. But you'd rather listen, for the hundredth time, to a cornet solo from 1899 than to a live performance on a Moog. Hey, if that's what gets you off. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #271,842 by Ashton 11/2/06 4:25:15 AM Reply	That dawg won't hunt Why? They just reproduce the same performance over and over. But you listen to them, don't you? Only the rich can travel to a live concert of choice, often (whatever the genre.) So? If I owned one-of-every recorded performance of my preferred composers -- I could today hear different performances, quite often enough. You buying? Any new music made with electronic instruments is by definition more original than a recording of traditional instruments. Sorry, Red Herring: 'new, original' is no virtue in itself. Why, The New is what drives mass overconsumption - and surely you didn't mean to imply that newness or #sales relates to quality(?) As to durability: I think that one has been answered with commendable brevity, elsewhere. I stated my concern - that all the marketing pressures re 'music' '06 are about corporate consolidation, homogenization and quantity sales. And as always - a %small of those sales are new performances of old music, say 50 - >500 years 'old'. Never mind the sales ratios: I reiterate that the culture is moving to full acceptance of recording over live. Caveat: that is, supposing that this culture and its appetites Is extant in 50 years. But you'd rather listen, for the hundredth time, to a cornet solo from 1899 than to a live performance on a Moog. I don't see many live Moog performances listed around these parts. There are many talented amateurs and some professional groups around here, from trios onward - and I attend those as my prefs. and purse dictate. Still beside the Point: with sufficient $ I could hear the Vienna Phil., take the SST and hear NY Phil. same day {OK - not any more..} etc. If Rich. I Was Talking About Tomorrow - the trend, the bizness of music-sales - in our culture which is biz-based from medicine to now, most every recreation has become commodity. I will not run out of options. Your kids might. Many today grow up never having heard an orchestra, and with no concept of what is possible, and damn little support for learning a non-electric instrument: from parents, schools, other adults (peers are of course equally unaware of all else but what the crowd has made fashionable this week - ever thus.) HTH, moi
Post #271,864 by pwhysall 11/2/06 10:01:13 AM Reply	Re: That dawg won't hunt Only the rich can travel to a live concert of choice Categorically untrue. My local pub does live music every Wednesday night, free of charge. Sure, the quality varies from the sublime to the opposite, and it does have a scarcity of original material, but still; it's live music. Classical concert tickets go from 15 quid on up; now, fifteen sheets isn't "free" but it's only three packets of smokes. All over the place there are live music events - "music in the park" type things, with proper bands and stuff. You're a musical snob, Ash. After all, I must be a philistine because I've got The Young Gods (100% sampled music) in my collection, and the Brandenburg Concertos (performed by the English Chamber Orchestra) - well, that's just a figment of my unable-to-appreciate-proper-music-as-defined-by-Ashton mind. Classical music (by which most people really mean Baroque, but hey ho) isn't the be-all and end-all of twanging strings to make noise. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,930 by drewk 11/2/06 9:43:06 PM Reply	Linguistic question ... from the sublime to the opposite ... Would that be "superlime"? Sounds like a good name for a college band. === Kip Hawley is still an idiot. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #271,947 by Another Scott 11/2/06 10:33:18 PM Reply	Be quick! Steven Colbert's claimed "superstantial" already.
Post #271,979 by Ashton 11/3/06 12:42:22 AM Reply	Pshaw - UK != US Read me in my posts - for comprehension. You too, want to morph my pitch for the exposure of kids to The Whole Variety of musical instruments into.. a tired, tawdry Mine's Bigger cha cha cha Fie on thee and-thy-reductio (too.) My personal prefs for what a one Does with an instrument, after learning to play it - has nothing to do with Learning to Play It, you fuel. FWIW I enjoy quite more than the immortal-kind, from Brubeck through the alphabet to Zappa. Including a bitchin duo - a delightful pres; a pair I'd never have encountered randomly: jazz p\ufffd svenska Piano by Jan Johansson; Bass by Georg Riedel IMO, the opening visa fr\ufffdn \ufffdlvdalen is as haunting a variation on a simple riff.. as an achingly-pure Schubert song; could be admired by anyone from Copland to Zappa. Or Zbigniew Brzezinski. It doesn't need an orchestra, or even a trio. And that is/was fucking irrelevant: One More Time. As to UK/US: I envy the variety and quantity available on the Sceptered. In a nicely compact space, to boot. Why, on a Vincent: Lands End to John O'Groats is a mere bagatelle. And then, a stoned throw away by Chunnel: all That! (Now imagine SF --> NY) As to the effect of distances here: I almost had to spring for a RT to Toronto.. til Cthulhu's grace brought my particular music-god practically next-door. Clean living, I guess. So, don't rub it in.. ~30 yrs. ago it was a veritable coin flip whether I'd next be adopting a Queen and more -- (not just for brass bands, though that might.. have weighed a bit, subconsciously.) Not much / or often, here: for 15ish quid. 'Brass bands' here try to resemble a dance troupe, forever competing at-speed via some obscure formula whereby Look-at-ME far outweighs.. Hear-my-Musical talents. That's just my impression of perhaps a half-dozen remote viewings. All performances look like half-time at a football game. This is 'music'? (I have done my share of marching/'playing' and then playing music sitting down. I know the difference in sound capability first-hand. As does Admin.) Your Colliery bands (- their morphed remnants?) compete, as well. And while they too march-to their contests (usually? - I dunno): they are sitting down / not double-time running/dancing - when it's for Real. They are judged on their musical virtuosity. Just another difference in attitudes, I guess. I'm staying with My original point: If kids never get the experience of hearing All the instruments in a (Live!) orchestra, thus experience what soundscapes can be produced by humans on instruments needing no electrical help (and at best: trying out a one or two, later?): They Won't Know What They Missed in the formative years from 0-60. Of Course! there is other-than-orchestral music - and of course it varies from crap to brilliance. But if you learn how to play an instrument, you cannot fail to have educated much more than your intellect. (And you can play jazz or whatever - on Any of them - harp to contrabassoon, if that is your desire.) Wynton Marsalis won {whatever the #1 award} in both Classical and Jazz, one year. The Beatles made use of many instruments.. and the occasional sym. orch. group - dunno who else might have crossed that chasm - in Pop. ie I think it is rank-stupid for kids to be left with the sole impression that: The electric guitar / drum are "what an instrument is" and Pop is "what music is". If that's what a Snob is - color me Snob. And I am unanimous in that. Music has been too large a part of my existence, for me ever to accept that it's perfectly OK to tacitly watch its trivialization into elevator background noise -- and as repetitive ad-accompaniment. There are those who believe that 'music' has its origins in metaphysical space.. as a purposeful aid in meditation, introspection. Whether or not, that -- I've watched pure-crap greatly out-amplify the thoughtful, burying that within the cacophony of a near 24/7 noise field: now omnipresent, for those living in cities. I really don't care if this POV is unpopular here, but if I've expressed it badly - I'm sure I'll be corrected. Ta
Post #271,981 by pwhysall 11/3/06 1:17:45 AM Reply	For comprehension? swallows own tongue in disbelief Anyway, to business. Devil's advocate time: what makes a "live orchestra" so much more fantabulous than going down to the local playhouse/pub/working men's club/dubya-tee-eff-evAr and seeing four or half-a-dozen people play their stuff? What makes a live orchestra, playing someone else's (someone else, incidentally, who's almost certainly dead) stuff, so damn great? Where's the emotional connection between myself and, say, Tchaikovsky's first? What mental context exists for me to enjoy this music other than to go, "ooh, what a lot of notes, cleverly arranged, and with what exquisite skill they are played"? Compare and contrast Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F with the song "Every Breath You Take" by The Police. Which of these fine pieces of music involves the listener, takes them on an emotional journey and leaves them with more than they started with, to a degree greater than the other? Outwith the very small community of musical experts, snobs and aficianados, it's going to be the latter. Yes, Gershwin's got more instruments, more notes, more musical sophistication. Perhaps Gershwin is the blank emotional canvas onto which we can paint our own mental picture - or perhaps, just perhaps, there's such a thing as pop music with substance and merit of a type equivalent to but different from "classical" a.k.a. "proper" music. Yes, there's a lot of crap out there. There's a lot of crap everywhere. Sturgeon applies. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #271,988 by Ashton 11/3/06 4:38:31 AM Reply	No problem with your examples Just with your simplistic assertion that ~ it's all the same - there's no real difference in knowing about many possible choices and - not. Still, there are many more instruments to audition, in an orchestra -- whether that orchestra is playing Pops, marches, Gershwin or Grieg. There are reasons why orchestral music has survived for centuries, but there's not an iota of logical proof why this should be. All I say is - Lead the little tykes to Hear Those, then Just maybe.. choose one or a few to try out? while eschewing meddlesome pushiness == You Should ___ (Accept that some just won't find anything there of interest. Oh well.) That's the hook. The aim is that the kid will want to learn the basics, learn to read music - Want! to learn these skills. That s/he will want to make music, not just passively hear. That won't always happen; nobody knows why some have strong attractions to 'making music', innately - while others need some encouragement; why some will never care. (I know someone completely indifferent to 'music' - just the one, mind you.) But it will happen more often if - A) The kid sees and hears this great variety of instruments, what each sounds like - and how a lot of them sound "in c o n c e r t" == together. There's a need for some intelligent introduction - even if you don't have \ufffdLenny as the guide. B) The kid experiences (in any case) more than just the habits of his local tribe - inexperienced peers don't have a lot to teach, especially in the pack-culture now commencing pre-teen. Lots of wasted opportunity when running in a pack. Logic alone isn't enough in the pseudo-sciences of 'people' but there's ample evidence that music can indeed soothe (or prevent) the savage beast. But I suspect that, just maybe: the soothing-beast effect does not follow from a steady diet with screaming, in repeated sessions lasting many hours. (OTOH - maybe just-that can be a catharsis from internal demons -?- if the kid was already heading Postal. Nobody knows how to fix that one, either. Did the biology of lots of tykes just suddenly change or, was it something they heard? A lot, in recent years.) Oh - I expect that those who are experienced quantum- mechanics are called snobs by some auto- mechanics, too. Must be something in the water, when experience and lore is dissed, with such Pridefulness. Hey.. we have that MO in Our politicians: is it over There, too? \ufffd Lenny Bernstein's childrens concerts were always a sell-out. Nice if you lived in NY. There are flics: kids enthralled - camera can't make that up. (We don't know how often those-who-didn't-go .. were 'enthralled'. In any given month, or year.) I'll let you know re the Postal stuff, after enough autopsies are done following the next school assassinations: if they connect-up real soon - could the MRI-Mark III actually detect snatches of say, Go kill a bitch!.. Go kill a bitch!.. floating about in the cooling jelloware? That would be kewl data... I'd think.
Post #272,069 by admin 11/3/06 2:00:35 PM Reply	Make up your mind. This sub-thread started with you asserting that electronics aren't instruments. Now you're arguing for the children, which I doubt anyone here is really going to disagree with. But it's not what we started with, and it's not a response to "yes, an electronic instrument is still an instrument, and a versatile one at that". Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #272,111 by Ashton 11/3/06 6:04:13 PM Reply	It's the same one. This sub-thread started with you asserting that electronics aren't instruments. Read it again - I said that you don't Make Your Own Sounds. And because you don't - a lot of effort is 'saved' - to a detriment, described more fully. Now you're arguing for the children, which I doubt anyone here is really going to disagree with. But it's not what we started with, and it's not a response to "yes, an electronic instrument is still an instrument, and a versatile one at that". A synthesizer is an 'instrument' a composer can 'use'. Is it a performance by an artist -- when the saved program is later turned on? I amplified on that distinction - was it too many words? Lastly - Electronic corporations have marketed millions of, "press this button and the drum-set will produce A B C D ... Z" "Now the treble: select from menu." Yada yada. These toys are about neither 'composition' nor performance: they are interesting sound-producing toys. Who can say if their use will encourage a serious investigation of the well-tempered scale - how to read music; what is harmony? why does a minor chord evoke emotions of sadness or seem an unfinished phrase? - or, will these toys discourage bothering to make that effort. I said what I think the likely answer is. I think we've done Music? Love? - what ARE They?? No need to gore oxes or even, Bush Gores Self\ufffd
Post #272,114 by CRConrad 11/3/06 6:23:07 PM Reply	So, are you absolutely convinced that... ...a synth can't be used without engaging either the "record to memory" or the "replay from memory" functions? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Ah, the Germans: Masters of Convoluted Simplification. — [link\|http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1603\|Jehovah]
Post #272,129 by admin 11/3/06 8:18:12 PM Reply	As Christian pointed out... You're mistaken in your conception of what an electronic instrument is and how it can be used. Now, if you want to argue against the exclusive use of them, fine... again, I won't disagree. That's not how we started down this road. Ashton, you have a habit of getting carried away with your rhetoric and painting an extremely wide swath with your brush of disdain. Don't act surprised when you get called on it. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #272,146 by Ashton 11/3/06 10:51:45 PM Reply	Always good advice, that Noted. Yes, I'm aware that you can dynamically key synths, though I can only guess at the latest versions and their versatility. I guess that is, 'playing that instrument'; the creativity in presetting, also in altering those programs (during, in real time) kinda rebuts my assertion that this isn't like "playing an instrument". I'll even have to concede that, just possibly there shall be new ways of performing which are not limited to those presets.. yet.. the utter determinism of any state-driven piece of electronics remains -NOT- equivalent to the kinds, extents of whole-body muscular + brain virtuosity whose drum I have been beating. That I cannot dissect that whole-performance well enough, doesn't particularly bother me; it's a task not unlike defining (music.) Simplest I can manage: natural instruments demand much more body-controlled nuance - in the act of performing - than these constructs do. Yes, there are similarities to the piano, of any keyboard; doubtless much has been improved since the Vorsetzer ('Sitter-in-front') piano-roll type robots: which required a human's original input natch, and included even-then some crude aspects of key/pedal pressures and rates. But the strings, woodwinds, brass cannot be mastered by any amount of electrical assistance (that I can envision, anyway) - and to me it is not particularly relevant that we can today create sounds indistinguishable from a 'piano chord'. "Creating <the sound itself> from a natural instrument" is simply a much more demanding whole-body experience than any of the above. I see no way around that difference with a real distinction. That is an art we must not jettison - is my POV. The field you are into is certainly music/sound; I simply cannot 'conflate!' whatever we call, 'performance with the New Instruments?' - with the level of involvement needed to achieve even a perfectly clear chromatic scale.. from a violin (or, oblig. trumpet, clarinet, yada.) These are Different pursuits. IIRC, late-50s the Japanese had cobbled together a vac-tube synthesizer of then: surprisingly realistic instrument sounds. It was claimed that banks could simulate an orchestral sound. I merely heard about this accomplishment at the lab, where we discussed the feat. (I should try to find out what that was called.) Similar issues arose in our discussion then. They aren't very different now. If I've missed something that can resolve these differences ...
Post #271,998 by boxley 11/3/06 8:46:29 AM Reply	"Every Breath You Take" is tard crap Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #271,999 by bepatient 11/3/06 8:49:28 AM Reply	Just couldn't let that one go, could you? Its certainly not their best, though. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #272,000 by pwhysall 11/3/06 8:49:41 AM Reply	What's the point of that post? Apart from the fact that you've flung your verbal faeces at this thread, that is? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #272,001 by bepatient 11/3/06 8:52:32 AM Reply	Spots on the wall by Hoo Flung Poo Illustrated by Jon Flushing. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #271,872 by Silverlock 11/2/06 11:05:54 AM Reply	Meh It's just notes strung together. It still takes a primate type to decide which notes go where. Lift your nose at something else. ----------------------------------------- Draft Obama [link\|http://www.draftobama.org/\|now].
Post #271,884 by admin 11/2/06 1:25:16 PM Reply	Brevity award goes here. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

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