Post #269,042
9/30/06 7:13:21 PM
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OK. Now THAT'S full of it.
Your accusation that the guy did it just to blog it, for just for fame?
Where do you get that? How the hell do YOU know his motivation?
Or is YOUR motivation just to deprecate HIS?
And even if you are right, and he did this 'just' to get attention to the story on his blog, then riddle me this: How does this illegitemize this as an exercise of his rights? It would seem to me that calling attention to this kind of petty abuse, not being forced to 'just shut up and do what you are told', ESPECIALLY when we USED TO PROTECT expressions of personal opinion, ESPECIALLY POLITICAL expressions of opinion.
Next, you compare this to shouting 'bomb'? What the hell, Bill? You say "Why didn't he write "explosives" on the bag? Just chicken I guess"? So - you attribute the message to the motivation you pulled out of thin air, then call him a 'chicken' because he didn't go further along the lines of the motivation you manufactured for him?
And yes - he brought it on himself. Ya know, standing up to petty abuse. Good on him! I guess that means he's NOT as 'chicken' as you assert, eh?
Sorry, Bill. This was bad. The screener should get a black mark on his record. Not fired perhaps - UNLESS he does it again. It should be a lesson to other screeners that THEIR authority does NOT extend to declaring 'rights-free-zones' - an extention of this administration's penchant for declaring 'free-speech zones' to spare the President from having to see that anyone disagrees with him.
Bullshit, Bill. I disagree with almost everything you've said on this subject. Vehemently. When he gets put on the permanent SSSSSSSS list because of it - AND HE WILL - its even worse.
Screw it. I've said what I have to.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #269,079
10/1/06 8:52:47 AM
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Certainly
Following the link from the original link you get Yesterday, while discussing the new rules a fellow Flyertalker suggested we write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on the outside of our clear plastic quart bags. So I did just that. Less of an "accusation" than an educated guess from the "fellow flyertalker" statement...or maybe something that needs microclarification, in case you're reading with Rand glasses on in which case I should say his intention was not to blog but to "post on an internet forum". I don't contend the screener shouldn't get a mark either. In fact, I think if you've read everything here that you would see that I've not defended 1) the screener 2) the system 3) the administration 4) the rules, ... endless list. My point, in summary, is that I don't feel bad for this man at all, nor the likely "black mark" on his record. I have a tendency not to believe his "I was acting all innocent" post, given the circumstance, and finally that 25 minutes of his time (if accurate) is an adequate punishment for his general assholeness that those here seen to want to turn into the more aggrandizing "exersize of his constitutional protected freedom of speech". He was certainly free to write his message on the bag, if this helps to clarify. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,080
10/1/06 9:23:25 AM
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Oh - so if the idea wasn't original, it was meant
to aquire '15 minutes of fame?'
And as for acting innocent - News flash: You assume assholishness. You assume innocence is an 'act'. You have basically said, this WHOLE THREAD that it is better to submit, that not foregoing a right to a political statement, that a protest - even minor one - is justification for being treated as a potential danger to the physical safety. That minor officials declaring rights-free-zones as response to being annoyed is understandable. IT IS NOT. It flies in the face of all it means to be American. It is symptomatic of all that is going wrong with our country; you would prefer to grow angry at the protest because it's inconvenient, and consider the guy a 'jerk' for daring to voice his opinion to an arm of the administration.
Just submit, and bear with it, and everything will be all right, not submitting is punishable - that's the message you have been transmitting, here.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #269,081
10/1/06 9:37:53 AM
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And it worked
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/28/idiot.baggie/index.html|http://www.cnn.com/2...baggie/index.html]
It has nothing to do with "challenging the system". If that was his intention, then there are certainly much better ways to do it. Though, apparently this one worked to at least get it to cnn. It wasn't even necessarily HIS opinion..as he took the idea from someone else.
He asked for it. He got it. I don't feel sorry for him nor do I care to escalate this into some kind of MOVEMENT..instead I'll keep it at the juvenile prank level where I believe it deserves to stay.
You beg to differ.
Hey, its still a free country.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,082
10/1/06 10:23:55 AM
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You keep saying that it had nothing to do
with 'challenging the system'. Perhaps you are referring to Constitutionally guaranteed free speech?
But the article you cite says NOTHING like that.
So - political speech/protest must go through official channels to be valid, now?
Better ways? Perhaps a letter writing campaign? Form a comittee? Letter to the editor in a local paper? Something ELSE that doesn't work?
Or maybe - use the greatest democratic publishing media on the planet to write about your experience with abuse of power by petty officials?
What a 'jerk', huh?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #269,085
10/1/06 10:50:18 AM
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Sometimes this is just tiresome.
Do I have to walk through every post made here to get you, now, to understand?
Maybe the legal term "contributory negligence" will help.
The guy chose to be an ass. The screener decided to overreact. Now I've stated over and over that both sides were out of line...but that I have NO SORROW for him for what happened. None. Zip. Zilch.
I liken it to him walking into a biker bar, going to the bar and telling the guy next to him "Harleys suck". I would expect his ass to get kicked and wouldn't feel sorry for him after the fact. Sorry, apparently this makes me less of an American.
However, because (IMO) I've presumed this to be simply that...an idiot getting what I opine to be his just due...I've the "freedom fighters" coming out of the wordwork to place hero status on this man because he "challenged the man". Again, sorry as this apparently makes me less of an American.
My humble apologies to those who think this attitude somehow contributes to nazi America. He asked for it. He got it. Toyota. You will NOT convince me otherwise.
He wasn't arrested. He was barely noticeably inconvenienced. Now he's a hero of the cause. Whoopee.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,089
10/1/06 11:14:17 AM
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How about using the "wrong" water fountain?
You know, the one marked "Whites only" when there's on clearly marked "Colored only" right next to it. It wouldn't inconvenience you at all to just go ahead and use the "right" fountain, would it? So calling the press and telling them you planned on drinking from the "wrong" one ... hell, that's not a political statement, that's just being an ass. Just hassling the poor cop who has to bust you over a rule he had nothing to do with passing, and he's got to put up with assholes like you always bitching about the rules. Poor guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he busts your head open, or sicks a dog on you. And I'd have no sympathy for you, you're just asking for it. Nope, no political statement there at all.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #269,091
10/1/06 11:42:07 AM
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So here we are...
at the "jackass" version of America....where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic...and where challenges to that "freedom to be juvenile" and and your right to generally be an asshole are jackboot thuggery.
Now not only is he a champion for the first amendment...but Drew has elevated even further...to civil rights champion!!!
Hooray for us.
And any debate...or attempt to call an asshole and asshole are shouted down by the "dutiful opposition".
Gee, I guess I am now not only a nazi supporter...but a RACIST NAZI SUPPORTER.
Good for me.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,180
10/1/06 11:54:06 PM
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Re: So here we are...
...where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic... Yes, yes they are. I thought that black lady sitting in the Whites Only seat was fairly juvenile, and after all, the bus driver was fairly junior...
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
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Post #269,181
10/2/06 12:13:45 AM
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"Juvenile challenges..."
at the "jackass" version of America....where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic...and where challenges to that "freedom to be juvenile" and and your right to generally be an asshole are jackboot thuggery.
I totally agree. This was a "jackass" version... It could've been worse, though. He could've disguised himself and sneaked in at night and trashed the TSA offices or something. Probably would've complained about the high cost of tea at the same time. Then again, like it or not, this was one reason why I'm very glad that we DIDN'T get private contractors in to do Airport Security. They are part of our government....and they HAVE to deal with assholes, it's part of the job. (Don't like it...get a different job)
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Post #269,182
10/2/06 12:43:34 AM
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yawn
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,095
10/1/06 12:42:26 PM
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He 'asked for it' so he shouldn't bring it to anyone's
attention.
And if the guy gets his ass kicked for saying 'Harleys Suck' yeah - he should expect it - but the bikers should also get punished. And that's HARDLY a political opinion.
Yes, the whole thing was minor. You have CONTINUALLY labelled this guy as a jerk, a publicity seeker, a chicken, an idiot, etc. as a result. You've manufactured reasons why.
And yeah - he asked for it. He KNEW there would be trouble. How sad is that? That LEGITIMIZES the whole thing! Protesters at political rallies also 'ask for it'. People that protest police brutality 'ask for it'. People that have bumper stickers criticizing Bush - or - pro-Democrat, down here (people have been FIRED for having Democratic bumper stickers down here) 'ask for it'. War protesters during wartime 'ask for it'.
Now HEAR THIS. That is what our Constitutional right to free speech is for! Being able to voice dissent, whenever or wherever you want. To make opinions KNOWN, ESPECIALLY opinions about politics and political figures, not to quietly submit (as they did in the Weimar Republic).
It's probably wiser to shut up and soldier in the short term. In the long term? No.
And as for understanding? Do YOU? Was this guy a MLK? A Rosa Parks? No. Was he punished to the extent that the jerk, the idiot, the chicken TSA guy could get away with for having an opinion that the TSA guy didn't like? YES. Was the TSA guy abusing authority? YES. Now - where did the guy get the idea that Constitutional rights didn't apply to his sphere of authority? How many others have this idea? Was it useful to bring this out in the open? YES.
THAT is one of the reason it is important to be ABLE to speak up when and where these things happen.
And YOU think he shouldn't have.
Whoopee.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
| |
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #269,096
10/1/06 12:54:08 PM
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But there is indeed a degree
you seem to believe that because he chose >this< as his platform, that I should feel differently about the outcome...because to not do so is somehow lessening the cause.
I doubt his cause. I doubt his sincerity with this cause and, as posted to drook, liken this to the "jackass" version of protest.
So, since I doubt his intention was to do anything BUT barb a TSA guy, I am completely unwilling to give it any status towards "the cause".
And to be completely accurate, the TSA guy was at least marginally correct in stating that the 1st amendment doesnt necessarily apply unfettered in his "sphere of authority". There are legal limitations imposed once you pass into his world.
But to be clear. NO this is not a forgiveness and NO I don't think it applied to the message written on the bag.
But I repeat, I will not elevate a man undertaking a juvenile prank be raised to a level in my head of "freedom fighter" rallying to any cause. If this is somehow dangerous to the American dream...oh well.
Both sides were wrong...and in the spirit of my point on this subject all along...you and Rand can post on this to your hearts content....I am wasting no more pixels on the subject...he doesn't deserve it.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,099
10/1/06 1:45:01 PM
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Beep proves himself a keen student of history
Having been rather decisively refuted by all and sundry he takes a cue from the late Vermont senator George Aiken's prescription for success in Vietnam— in the spirit of my point on this subject all along...you and Rand can post on this to your hearts content....I am wasting no more pixels on the subject...he doesn't deserve it. —he declares victory and goes home. Well played, old son! Would that the President had the sense to quit! cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #269,118
10/1/06 7:40:25 PM
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I declared nothing.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,230
10/2/06 3:32:44 PM
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Sure you did
in noBODY language?
It's all about the efficiency, isn't it?
Someone does [any old thing] that might interfere with the efficient-transport-of goods / lemmings whatever: that is tantamount to inhibiting the committing of Capitalism. Why, it's a direct >attack< on The Market!
And as all know, The Market WILL Correct. Or the straw-Biker-bar snockered-lad consensus. Same thing.
(We 'bikers' oft opined that, Harley's Suck - wanna race?
Nary a One wanted to choose off.. any old [1000 cc = smaller displacement] random Vincent.)
PS - with a precious few exceptions (copies of Engl. bikes of yore.. sorta but way-Fatter: they STILL suck - all they are is pretty (for those who think Cadillacs are pretty) and heavy 2-wheel Hummers. Bought by people who also buy Rollexi - or wish they could. Blings.
Why, from that, any Econ major could deduce: Harley Riders are Cowards/wimps! precisely same process by which you immediately characterized the above incident: pulled-outta-ass.
Thus: your dogged, one might say intransigent defense of the Smooth Operation of Just Everything -no matter any minor consequences- to say, the continued pursuit of life, liberty and happiness? and all that irrelevant crybaby Constitutional crap which -- interferes with the mathematics of Economics Theory.
Your stand is utterly predictable, on so many topics - if folks will just recall that, Principally what you are is: an Econ Major, subsequently - evangelist? (with no pesky Minors to confuse your worldview). Does it suck to have become predictable?
We needn't go into 'admirable' and other such not-Efficiency-associated word things.
It would waste more time.
Carrion.
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Post #269,236
10/2/06 4:18:51 PM
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Wrong again
even if english is a second language.
No business in my position. None. Nada. Zilch.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,122
10/1/06 7:53:32 PM
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Flytalker forum
Quite the [link|http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/|rabble rousers], no?
You continually assert the worst of motives to the "blogger" and then take issue with those motives. I leave the logical fallacy comitted as an exercise for the student.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
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Post #269,127
10/1/06 8:19:28 PM
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You didn't read the linked articles either.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,142
10/1/06 9:02:19 PM
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Dude, I posted it.
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Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
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Post #269,158
10/1/06 10:05:18 PM
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Go back further
Where it was admittedly not his idea.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #269,185
10/2/06 6:28:32 AM
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And this assigns motive how?
If no one had responded to his post and it never got written up, does that mean his motive would have been to be ignored?
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Worst President ever.
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Post #269,103
10/1/06 3:51:58 PM
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It's called "Straw Man Rhetoric", Skip...
BeeP's a master of it. It works like this. Rhetorician A, wishing to demean the position of Rhetorician B that A doesn't particularly agree with, creates an absurd argument that our A claims is what B's original point "really "means" or "is reduced to" or some other such sweeping generalization. Then our intrepid A proceeds to attack viciously and with finality that point, hoping against hope that the rest of the audience doesn't notice that the attack in no way diminishes or even addresses the original point made by B.
Recognize anything there, Skip? You should...it describes BeePS argument here to a tee (not to mention a goodly sum of his other "arguments" to date).
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
— Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #269,117
10/1/06 7:39:55 PM
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You didn't read the linked articles.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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