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New Because it is his j o b
and I'm not defending his being a jerk, just understanding it. But I'm also not willing to forgive the asshole who is trying to make a first amendment case out of his own actions to make that guys job even a bigger pain in the ass.

Bags are supposed to be CLEAR PLASTIC. Those are the rules the TSA guy must follow. His ass may be on the line with his boss because he allowed that through unchecked. and as smug as the dudes post was, its entirely likely he wasnt being cooperative..more likely he was being combative.

Why can't people realize that the screeners job ALREADY sucks...say thanks and have a nice day...and move on so everyone else in line isn't late for their plane.

I have no sympathy for this persons perceived violations of liberty. I would have denied him access (which is the right of the TSA) just for being an idiot. Boy, wouldn't that have made a better blog post.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New What would be your thoughts...
On if his personal items like his wallet, key fob or something said "Kip Hawley is an Idiot!" inside the CLEAR plastic bag.

If he really wanted to make a 1st amendment issue... that is what he needed to do. The TSA wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Just wondering on your thinking on that.

Of course remember what I went through taking a 1-way from Detroit Metro to La Guardia, with a license plate, an MSP State Police hat, 4 - 3/8" long license plate screws and a flat blade screw driver in his bag. Along with reading materials related to computer security and a Subway sandwich.

Remember, I was down to mah skivvies before given the "OK". And just made last call for my flight. Noticing my 4 screws (yeah deadly weapons there) and screw driver (believable to be a deadly weapon as it has a "blade") were gone.

So, your thoughts on it being an item inside the bag with the statement on it, would be a good thing.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New My thoughts are simple
While we know you had no intention of using those screws as a deadly weapon..checking the rules and undergoing the inconvenience of checking your bag would have solved your problem. The TSA system isn't perfect, it really isn't that good at all but its better, marginally, than nothing.

My real issue is simple. If you consider it your God given right as an American to be a jackass, please be advised that the person you are exersizing that right with has an equal opportunity and right to be a jackass right back...and sometimes that person is simply gonna be better at it.

Quite frankly, I don't believe half of this guys story. He did something stupid to get some blog fodder...and he paid for it with 25 minutes of his precious time.

Big f-en deal.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Thank you. I wanted to hear it from the...
Jackass himself...

neener...neener!
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Freedom is not FREE.
Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars?
SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;

0 rows returned.
New >poke<
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Great Subject Line! 'Nuff said.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New {eddie murphy laugh}
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New I'm not sure I agree
that that is his job. He's not there looking for political statements, he's there looking for hazardous materials.

I've read many many cases of screeners taking their authority into their hands for what seems to be a simple case of dislike on sight and using it to humiliate someone. To be sure, his job sucks, and I've little doubt that the remuneration for it sucks seriously too. OTOH, I can think of a lot of jobs like that without the perq of being able to periodically vent one's spleen on someone just 'cause, like fry cook say.

If he's a baggage screener, he's there to screen baggage for the Things We Really Don't Want On Airplanes. One's political opinions don't fall into that category.

BTW- I'll be getting into Mtl at around 8:15, and we can hook up for a hooker of something strong if you're of a mind. If you're just interested in a hooker, though, we'll have to truck a fair number of blocks to get to St-Catherine Est (cette Catherine, elle n'est pas une sainte, c'est sur). Personally, I'm thinking beer and maybe a shot of Scotch to set the trail. I shouldn't leave leaving to go up to Laval any later than about eleven or midnight though.

I'll give you a shout on the cell when I get into town to find out where you are so I can come and meet you. If you could find out the nearest Metro station to your hotel that would prolly help....
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New reading comprehension not?
Quoth the Beep: "Bags are supposed to be CLEAR PLASTIC."

It was. What's that you say? The political statement compromised the perfect transparency of the plastic, and constituted a security threat?

Let's imagine that our disgruntled passenger had instead written "I Support Our President and Our Troops" on the bag. Does TSA give him grief? I think not. Diss the agency head, though, and
I would have denied him access (which is the right of the TSA) just for being an idiot.
You know, I believe you would.

Looks like you'll fit in nicely in this New American Century of ours, kid.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Very much so, my friend.
How do you , when faced with someone being obviouly belligerent to you, respond back to that individual? With a polite nod and a thank you? Based upon your screed to me and in other threads in these here forums...I would think that you would respond with an equal belligerency.

To turn a 20 minute delay into a federal case of 1st amendment is, in my opinion, just another example of someone seeking his 15 minutes of fame by accosting a man simply because you don't like the job he was assigned to do.

My point was, if you want to be a jerk to me...just look at how much of a jerk I can be right gack atcha, thankyouverymuch.

This, to me, has zero to do with TSA and everything to do with someone trying to get his name in pixels.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Your reading comprehension worse than I thought
Beep froths: "How do you, when faced with someone being obviously belligerent to you, respond back to that individual?"

[link|http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6440005|Here's] where the account was posted, and to refresh your memory, here's how the encounter is described:
Yesterday, while discussing the new rules a fellow Flyertalker suggested we write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on the outside of our clear plastic quart bags. So I did just that.

At the MKE "E" checkpoint I placed my laptop in one bin, and my shoes, cell phone and quart bag in a second bin. The TSA guy who was pushing bags and bins into the X-ray machine took a good hard look, and then as the bag when though the X-ray I think he told the X-ray operator to call for a bag check/explosive swab on my roller bag to slow me down. He went strait to the TSA Supervisor on duty and boy did he come marching over to the checkpoint with fire in his eyes!

He grabbed the baggie as it came out of the X-ray and asked if it was mine. After responding yes, he pointed at my comment and demanded to know "What is this supposed to mean?" "It could me a lot of things, it happens to be an opinion on mine." "You can't write things like this" he said, "You mean my First Amendment right to freedom of speech doesn't apply here?" "Out there (pointing pass the id checkers) not while in here (pointing down) was his response."

At this point I chuckled, just looking at him wondering if he just realized how foolish that comment was, but I think my laugh pushed him over the edge as he got really angry at this point. A Milwaukee County Sheriffs deputy was summoned - I would have left at this point, but he had my quart bag with my toothpaste and hair gel...
So...granted we have this cheeky passenger's account, and not that of the TSA worker bee, but show me where the "obvious" belligerence is. He didn't "accost" the TSA screener, as you would have it; the TSA screener accosted him. There was no security risk here. I don't doubt that the passenger's chuckle was freighted with as much amused condescension as he could pack into it, and it is generally imprudent to mock a petty functionary who has the power to inconvenience one, at the very least, if he is made to feel pissy. But the passenger was not being belligerent by any commonly accepted definition of the word. Perhaps you meant "passive-aggressive" or something.

But all this is rather beside the point, which is that in the name of that marvelously elastic "war on terror" this society is sliding into a sombre, imbecilic authoritarianism so rapidly now that the passing scenery has started to blur. We're being told—why, by people just like you, Beep!—to shut up, to defer meekly to every trespass, however great or petty, of that arbitrary power upon our ancient liberties, lest we be labeled "jerks" or worse.

As I said, you'll probably feel right at home in the prison-house they're building. Most of the rest of us, not so much.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Obviously we have an impasse
or perhaps I should use the synonym "contentious". The honorable traveler in question invited, nay sought, the confrontation that he received. The act of writing something he thought "amusing" invited this confrontation. Does this better fit? Have I met your superior liguistic challenge?

And now we have our "freedom fighters" rallying to his cry..."call the ACLU" they cry.."your rights were violated" they cry.

Forgive me if I feel no pity for the man who brought it to himself, nor do I care to call the lawyers for the angry mutterings of "mr authority figure" who already has a pretty crappy job smelling that mans shoes...while being held to the angelic standard of the "in" crowd...by smiling, nodding, and thinking to himself "ha ha, another guy who thinks he's a political pundit at my expense" for the seven thousandth time today.

Yes, the rules are stupid to some, be them majority or minority. But I feel no sympathy nor do I care to elevate to the constitional level the actions of this man, though it appears to me you would like him elevated to hero status...or maybe just martyr to the cause of freedom versus the nasty neocons.

And while you may blame this on the "war on terra"...it has always been unwise to make utterances within the security lines...and remains completely unadvisable to say the word "bomb". This is well in advance of 9/11 and its aftermath. Why didn't he write "explosives" on the bag? Just chicken I guess.

I've been through dozens of checkpoints since the war on terra started. The real changes? Shoes...and more recently (past 2 trips for me) the liquids ban. What behavior has that solicited for 99.9999% of travelers? They check a bag.

The rest get 15 minutes of fame in blogland, apparently.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
Expand Edited by bepatient Sept. 30, 2006, 04:49:42 PM EDT
New ..down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!!
And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench. And everything was fine, we was smoking cigarettes and all kinds of
things, until the Sargeant came over, had some paper in his hand, held it
up and said.

"Kids, this-piece-of-paper's-got-47-words-37-sentences-58-words-we-wanna-
know-details-of-the-crime-time-of-the-crime-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-
you-gotta-say-pertaining-to-and-about-the-crime-I-want-to-know-arresting-
officer's-name-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-you-gotta-say", and talked for
forty-five minutes and nobody understood a word that he said, but we had
fun filling out the forms and playing with the pencils on the bench there,
and I filled out the massacre with the four part harmony, and wrote it
down there, just like it was, and everything was fine and I put down the
pencil, and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the
other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on
the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the
following words:

("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")

I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to
ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm
sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench
'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women,
kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and
said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints
off to Washington."

And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a
study in black and white of my fingerprints. And the only reason I'm
singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into
the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get
anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and
walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.




what goes around comes around
[link|http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml|http://www.arlo.net/...rics/alices.shtml]
New Do you mean?
That somewhere in Washington now is a sample of this mans hair gel...and to pay tribute we should all sing the Motorcycle Song? After all, it is a pickle to some.

Now >that< would be a movement.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New OK. Now THAT'S full of it.
Your accusation that the guy did it just to blog it, for just for fame?

Where do you get that? How the hell do YOU know his motivation?

Or is YOUR motivation just to deprecate HIS?

And even if you are right, and he did this 'just' to get attention to the story on his blog, then riddle me this: How does this illegitemize this as an exercise of his rights? It would seem to me that calling attention to this kind of petty abuse, not being forced to 'just shut up and do what you are told', ESPECIALLY when we USED TO PROTECT expressions of personal opinion, ESPECIALLY POLITICAL expressions of opinion.

Next, you compare this to shouting 'bomb'? What the hell, Bill? You say "Why didn't he write "explosives" on the bag? Just chicken I guess"? So - you attribute the message to the motivation you pulled out of thin air, then call him a 'chicken' because he didn't go further along the lines of the motivation you manufactured for him?

And yes - he brought it on himself. Ya know, standing up to petty abuse. Good on him! I guess that means he's NOT as 'chicken' as you assert, eh?

Sorry, Bill. This was bad. The screener should get a black mark on his record. Not fired perhaps - UNLESS he does it again. It should be a lesson to other screeners that THEIR authority does NOT extend to declaring 'rights-free-zones' - an extention of this administration's penchant for declaring 'free-speech zones' to spare the President from having to see that anyone disagrees with him.

Bullshit, Bill. I disagree with almost everything you've said on this subject. Vehemently. When he gets put on the permanent SSSSSSSS list because of it - AND HE WILL - its even worse.

Screw it. I've said what I have to.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Certainly
Following the link from the original link you get

Yesterday, while discussing the new rules a fellow Flyertalker suggested we write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on the outside of our clear plastic quart bags. So I did just that.


Less of an "accusation" than an educated guess from the "fellow flyertalker" statement...or maybe something that needs microclarification, in case you're reading with Rand glasses on in which case I should say his intention was not to blog but to "post on an internet forum".

I don't contend the screener shouldn't get a mark either. In fact, I think if you've read everything here that you would see that I've not defended 1) the screener 2) the system 3) the administration 4) the rules, ... endless list.

My point, in summary, is that I don't feel bad for this man at all, nor the likely "black mark" on his record. I have a tendency not to believe his "I was acting all innocent" post, given the circumstance, and finally that 25 minutes of his time (if accurate) is an adequate punishment for his general assholeness that those here seen to want to turn into the more aggrandizing "exersize of his constitutional protected freedom of speech". He was certainly free to write his message on the bag, if this helps to clarify.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Oh - so if the idea wasn't original, it was meant
to aquire '15 minutes of fame?'

And as for acting innocent - News flash: You assume assholishness. You assume innocence is an 'act'. You have basically said, this WHOLE THREAD that it is better to submit, that not foregoing a right to a political statement, that a protest - even minor one - is justification for being treated as a potential danger to the physical safety. That minor officials declaring rights-free-zones as response to being annoyed is understandable. IT IS NOT. It flies in the face of all it means to be American. It is symptomatic of all that is going wrong with our country; you would prefer to grow angry at the protest because it's inconvenient, and consider the guy a 'jerk' for daring to voice his opinion to an arm of the administration.

Just submit, and bear with it, and everything will be all right, not submitting is punishable - that's the message you have been transmitting, here.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New And it worked
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/28/idiot.baggie/index.html|http://www.cnn.com/2...baggie/index.html]

It has nothing to do with "challenging the system". If that was his intention, then there are certainly much better ways to do it. Though, apparently this one worked to at least get it to cnn. It wasn't even necessarily HIS opinion..as he took the idea from someone else.

He asked for it. He got it. I don't feel sorry for him nor do I care to escalate this into some kind of MOVEMENT..instead I'll keep it at the juvenile prank level where I believe it deserves to stay.

You beg to differ.

Hey, its still a free country.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New You keep saying that it had nothing to do
with 'challenging the system'. Perhaps you are referring to Constitutionally guaranteed free speech?

But the article you cite says NOTHING like that.

So - political speech/protest must go through official channels to be valid, now?

Better ways? Perhaps a letter writing campaign? Form a comittee? Letter to the editor in a local paper? Something ELSE that doesn't work?

Or maybe - use the greatest democratic publishing media on the planet to write about your experience with abuse of power by petty officials?

What a 'jerk', huh?

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Sometimes this is just tiresome.
Do I have to walk through every post made here to get you, now, to understand?

Maybe the legal term "contributory negligence" will help.

The guy chose to be an ass. The screener decided to overreact. Now I've stated over and over that both sides were out of line...but that I have NO SORROW for him for what happened. None. Zip. Zilch.

I liken it to him walking into a biker bar, going to the bar and telling the guy next to him "Harleys suck". I would expect his ass to get kicked and wouldn't feel sorry for him after the fact. Sorry, apparently this makes me less of an American.

However, because (IMO) I've presumed this to be simply that...an idiot getting what I opine to be his just due...I've the "freedom fighters" coming out of the wordwork to place hero status on this man because he "challenged the man". Again, sorry as this apparently makes me less of an American.

My humble apologies to those who think this attitude somehow contributes to nazi America. He asked for it. He got it. Toyota. You will NOT convince me otherwise.

He wasn't arrested. He was barely noticeably inconvenienced. Now he's a hero of the cause. Whoopee.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New How about using the "wrong" water fountain?
You know, the one marked "Whites only" when there's on clearly marked "Colored only" right next to it. It wouldn't inconvenience you at all to just go ahead and use the "right" fountain, would it? So calling the press and telling them you planned on drinking from the "wrong" one ... hell, that's not a political statement, that's just being an ass. Just hassling the poor cop who has to bust you over a rule he had nothing to do with passing, and he's got to put up with assholes like you always bitching about the rules. Poor guy, I wouldn't be surprised if he busts your head open, or sicks a dog on you. And I'd have no sympathy for you, you're just asking for it. Nope, no political statement there at all.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New So here we are...
at the "jackass" version of America....where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic...and where challenges to that "freedom to be juvenile" and and your right to generally be an asshole are jackboot thuggery.

Now not only is he a champion for the first amendment...but Drew has elevated even further...to civil rights champion!!!

Hooray for us.

And any debate...or attempt to call an asshole and asshole are shouted down by the "dutiful opposition".

Gee, I guess I am now not only a nazi supporter...but a RACIST NAZI SUPPORTER.

Good for me.


Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Re: So here we are...
...where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic...

Yes, yes they are.

I thought that black lady sitting in the Whites Only seat was fairly juvenile, and after all, the bus driver was fairly junior...


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
New "Juvenile challenges..."

at the "jackass" version of America....where juvenile challenges to minor players in govt are rewarded as heroic...and where challenges to that "freedom to be juvenile" and and your right to generally be an asshole are jackboot thuggery.


I totally agree. This was a "jackass" version...

It could've been worse, though. He could've disguised himself and sneaked in at night and trashed the TSA offices or something. Probably would've complained about the high cost of tea at the same time.

Then again, like it or not, this was one reason why I'm very glad that we DIDN'T get private contractors in to do Airport Security. They are part of our government....and they HAVE to deal with assholes, it's part of the job. (Don't like it...get a different job)
New yawn
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New He 'asked for it' so he shouldn't bring it to anyone's
attention.

And if the guy gets his ass kicked for saying 'Harleys Suck' yeah - he should expect it - but the bikers should also get punished. And that's HARDLY a political opinion.

Yes, the whole thing was minor. You have CONTINUALLY labelled this guy as a jerk, a publicity seeker, a chicken, an idiot, etc. as a result. You've manufactured reasons why.

And yeah - he asked for it. He KNEW there would be trouble. How sad is that? That LEGITIMIZES the whole thing! Protesters at political rallies also 'ask for it'. People that protest police brutality 'ask for it'. People that have bumper stickers criticizing Bush - or - pro-Democrat, down here (people have been FIRED for having Democratic bumper stickers down here) 'ask for it'. War protesters during wartime 'ask for it'.

Now HEAR THIS. That is what our Constitutional right to free speech is for! Being able to voice dissent, whenever or wherever you want. To make opinions KNOWN, ESPECIALLY opinions about politics and political figures, not to quietly submit (as they did in the Weimar Republic).

It's probably wiser to shut up and soldier in the short term. In the long term? No.

And as for understanding? Do YOU? Was this guy a MLK? A Rosa Parks? No. Was he punished to the extent that the jerk, the idiot, the chicken TSA guy could get away with for having an opinion that the TSA guy didn't like? YES. Was the TSA guy abusing authority? YES. Now - where did the guy get the idea that Constitutional rights didn't apply to his sphere of authority? How many others have this idea? Was it useful to bring this out in the open? YES.

THAT is one of the reason it is important to be ABLE to speak up when and where these things happen.

And YOU think he shouldn't have.

Whoopee.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New But there is indeed a degree
you seem to believe that because he chose >this< as his platform, that I should feel differently about the outcome...because to not do so is somehow lessening the cause.

I doubt his cause. I doubt his sincerity with this cause and, as posted to drook, liken this to the "jackass" version of protest.

So, since I doubt his intention was to do anything BUT barb a TSA guy, I am completely unwilling to give it any status towards "the cause".

And to be completely accurate, the TSA guy was at least marginally correct in stating that the 1st amendment doesnt necessarily apply unfettered in his "sphere of authority". There are legal limitations imposed once you pass into his world.

But to be clear. NO this is not a forgiveness and NO I don't think it applied to the message written on the bag.

But I repeat, I will not elevate a man undertaking a juvenile prank be raised to a level in my head of "freedom fighter" rallying to any cause. If this is somehow dangerous to the American dream...oh well.

Both sides were wrong...and in the spirit of my point on this subject all along...you and Rand can post on this to your hearts content....I am wasting no more pixels on the subject...he doesn't deserve it.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Beep proves himself a keen student of history
Having been rather decisively refuted by all and sundry he takes a cue from the late Vermont senator George Aiken's prescription for success in Vietnam—
in the spirit of my point on this subject all along...you and Rand can post on this to your hearts content....I am wasting no more pixels on the subject...he doesn't deserve it.
—he declares victory and goes home. Well played, old son! Would that the President had the sense to quit!

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New I declared nothing.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Sure you did
in noBODY language?

It's all about the efficiency, isn't it?

Someone does [any old thing] that might interfere with the efficient-transport-of goods / lemmings whatever: that is tantamount to inhibiting the committing of Capitalism. Why, it's a direct >attack< on The Market!
And as all know, The Market WILL Correct. Or the straw-Biker-bar snockered-lad consensus. Same thing.

(We 'bikers' oft opined that, Harley's Suck - wanna race?
Nary a One wanted to choose off.. any old [1000 cc = smaller displacement] random Vincent.)
PS - with a precious few exceptions (copies of Engl. bikes of yore.. sorta but way-Fatter: they STILL suck - all they are is pretty (for those who think Cadillacs are pretty) and heavy 2-wheel Hummers. Bought by people who also buy Rollexi - or wish they could. Blings.


Why, from that, any Econ major could deduce: Harley Riders are Cowards/wimps! precisely same process by which you immediately characterized the above incident: pulled-outta-ass.

Thus: your dogged, one might say intransigent defense of the Smooth Operation of Just Everything -no matter any minor consequences- to say, the continued pursuit of life, liberty and happiness? and all that irrelevant crybaby Constitutional crap which -- interferes with the mathematics of Economics Theory.

Your stand is utterly predictable, on so many topics - if folks will just recall that, Principally what you are is: an Econ Major, subsequently - evangelist? (with no pesky Minors to confuse your worldview). Does it suck to have become predictable?

We needn't go into 'admirable' and other such not-Efficiency-associated word things.
It would waste more time.


Carrion.

New Wrong again
even if english is a second language.

No business in my position. None. Nada. Zilch.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Flytalker forum
Quite the [link|http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/|rabble rousers], no?

You continually assert the worst of motives to the "blogger" and then take issue with those motives. I leave the logical fallacy comitted as an exercise for the student.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New You didn't read the linked articles either.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Dude, I posted it.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New Go back further
Where it was admittedly not his idea.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New And this assigns motive how?
If no one had responded to his post and it never got written up, does that mean his motive would have been to be ignored?
-----------------------------------------
Worst President ever.
New It's called "Straw Man Rhetoric", Skip...
BeeP's a master of it. It works like this. Rhetorician A, wishing to demean the position of Rhetorician B that A doesn't particularly agree with, creates an absurd argument that our A claims is what B's original point "really "means" or "is reduced to" or some other such sweeping generalization. Then our intrepid A proceeds to attack viciously and with finality that point, hoping against hope that the rest of the audience doesn't notice that the attack in no way diminishes or even addresses the original point made by B.

Recognize anything there, Skip? You should...it describes BeePS argument here to a tee (not to mention a goodly sum of his other "arguments" to date).
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New You didn't read the linked articles.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Move to strike as nonresponsive
TSA screeners are not there to monitor levels of fealty to or dissent from the regime. TSA screeners are (broadly speaking) paid to determine whether boarding passengers are likely to divert aircraft away from their assigned flightplans and into large or famous buildings.

I invited you to consider whether our cheeky passenger would have been interfered with had his clear plastic bag borne a "patriotic" sentiment on the order of "I support our troops and President Bush." You declined to address this point, and I'm going to assume from your silence that you agree that no, the passenger would not likely have aroused the ire of the vigilant screener, although I'd love to see you argue the contrary.
The honorable traveler in question invited, nay sought, the confrontation that he received. The act of writing something he thought "amusing" invited this confrontation. Does this better fit? Have I met your superior liguistic challenge?
Nope.

You see—no, you don't, do you?—the point is that political sentiments written on a plastic bag should not concern a TSA screener unless they say something like "Long live al-Qaeda! Death to Amedrica! Death to the Sears Tower!"

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that a hijacker who has devised a new way to seize control of a commercial aircraft that somehow solves the problem of hardened access to the cockpit and the ire of fellow-passengers who would rather be featured on a made-for-TV movie as heroes who swarmed the bad'ums and saved the White House/Capitol/Sears Tower/Transamerica Pyramid than as helpless sheep...well, a feller clever enough to think past those obstacles is not likely to announce his intentions on the surface of a ziplock bag. Is he?

You with me so far, Beep, or would you rather this conversation had never happened (hey, I'm cool)?

So we've got the TSA screener, supposedly charged with identifying threats to civilian aviation, and he sees (let's imagine) two plastic bags in the x-ray machine, one praising President Bush and the other dissing Kip Whatsisname. What reason on earth does he have to detain either owner of either plastic bag as a potential threat to airline security?

Not. One. Fucking. Reason. At. All.

You know, if you retain a gram of intellectual honesty, that the guy with the rah-rah sentiment on his plastic bag almost certainly gets a pass. You know from the account we're both discussing that the guy who says bad things about the TSA head gets pulled out of line and given grief. And you don't merely see nothing wrong with this, you all but applaud it.

You should not. We can agree on this: the incident as described is essentially trivial. The passenger was making no particularly profound gesture of dissent, and his punishment consisted of little more than a brief delay, the temporary confiscation of his passport, a moderately tense confrontation with the airport constabulary.

And yet, and yet.

All this proceeded from writing a political sentiment on a plastic bag—not merely apolitical sentiment but the wrong political sentiment. Any rational person will understand that anyone capable of a successful aircraft hijack in 2006 will not announce the fact, or even hint at it in any conscious way, in the course of the boarding process. The TSA screener didn't imagine for a moment that he was detaining a potential hijacker. What he knew was that he was bullying a smart-alec.

This is the United Fucking States of America!! We're supposed to be smart-alecs! Anti-authoritarian! Quirky! Individualist! Skeptical of authority! When the hell did the memo come down that we were all supposed to cringe before our betters?

It gets worse: the monstrous farrago of repressive measures passed the other day by Congress to its eternal infamy permits the Executive broad latitude in designating "enemy combatants," a label which once affixed even to an American citizen effectively drops him down the rabbit hole, assuming that your rabbit is reddish in complexion, has horns instead of ears, and a barbed tail. Yeah, the "man who brought it to himself" had it coming for expressing an opinion that someone way, way down on the Executive org chart didn't like. Under this new law any of us will have it coming should we offend, and while this will likely involve most of us in the event in mere inconvenience, it may be that some untimely instance of sarcasm will come to the attention of someone higher—perhaps not that much higher—up the political foodchain. In that case the unlikely victim becomes an Orwellian unperson: Evidence against me? —Sorry, no can do; national security. Get my story out to the papers? —Not permitted. In that case OH JESUS NOT THE WATERBOAGGGHHHHGH

The "man who brought it to himself" is doing us all a favor, whatever his motives. The old American Republic is slain and rotting, and a monstrous thing, a gigantic imperial maggot is struggling out of the corpse. Can you not smell it, Beep? Is your denial so smug?

I'm going to attempt to cross post this in "Politics," because this thread is sinking down on the screen. Replies there, if interested.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Very well said. (new thread)
Created as new thread #269065 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=269065|Very well said.]
New It just might be a tie..
Since we don't know the mindsets of either (or previous hour's events as Tick a One Off.) In particular - you cannot assume that 'Federal Case' was what the feltpenner had >in mind< so much as, a spur-of-the-moment ..?.. (say)
Just HOW fucked-up is Everything this Fearmongering Admin does, ANYWHERE??

(I mean sure.. not everyone sees the situation That way either - even those opposed to Chimp-rule - but I betcha LOTS do see it ~ that way.)

Let's raise the scale for perspective; drag out the stats on -

Road rage
Intra-familial sex predation, violence, impermanence
Cubicle-rage (var. going-Postal)
Murder of children (COLO seems to get the prize, recently re-polished)
'Fear' as a daily exercise in trying to Keep One-Party Rule - at Any cost.
[tiny list]

Is it really an exaggeration to utter, right here in '06
We. Are. Driving. Ourselves. Crazy.?.



Then I would add (though every one has a Pet):
via the endless consumption conveyor-belt as Has No Idea of, Enough! Already! -
patent materialism as, a big fat nicotine+heroin+$peed-Ball.

Rest case - the airport incident just joins the millions of others.
Never mind the on-the-spot psychoanalyses for each datum.
New Minor nit....
the TSA guy is claimed to have said "You can't write things like this"....not "You can't write on this bag.".

A 20-minute delay for writing "toiletries" (and everyone who's bag has writing on it getting 20-minute delays, I would agree with you).

A 20-minute delay for writing "Kip Hawley is an idiot" (or "Bush is an idiot" or whatever) and everyone's who's written "toiletries" passing on through....sorry, that is a civil rights issue.
New Prec\ufffdsamente (Brevity Award, too)

New Yes, decapitation is bad.. OTOH_____ it's likely painless
Y'know Beep, you're so accommodating of the mini-outrages du jour.. as each new one oozes-out drip-by-drip - like blood serum of the Body Politic, drained by 1000 cuts --

I believe you probably Wouldn't complain..

if they hanged you with that Golden rope.

New No, that is incorrect.
To understand precisely why, read my response to your brethren.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New OT: Dunno about that.
re: decapitation - I imagine it's quite painful and horrific. [link|http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_262.html|The Straight Dope] has some information on a verified case.

Cheers,
Scott.
     Hello air travel. Goodbye first amendment. - (Silverlock) - (50)
         Don't know which is worse - (bepatient) - (49)
             Explain, please - (rcareaga) - (48)
                 What surprised me - (drewk) - (1)
                     I've long ago ceased to be surprised by American names. - (static)
                 Because it is his j o b - (bepatient) - (45)
                     What would be your thoughts... - (folkert) - (5)
                         My thoughts are simple - (bepatient) - (4)
                             Thank you. I wanted to hear it from the... - (folkert) - (1)
                                 >poke< -NT - (bepatient)
                             Great Subject Line! 'Nuff said. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                 {eddie murphy laugh} -NT - (bepatient)
                     I'm not sure I agree - (jake123)
                     reading comprehension not? - (rcareaga) - (32)
                         Very much so, my friend. - (bepatient) - (31)
                             Your reading comprehension worse than I thought - (rcareaga) - (29)
                                 Obviously we have an impasse - (bepatient) - (28)
                                     ..down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!! - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Do you mean? - (bepatient)
                                     OK. Now THAT'S full of it. - (imric) - (23)
                                         Certainly - (bepatient) - (20)
                                             Oh - so if the idea wasn't original, it was meant - (imric) - (14)
                                                 And it worked - (bepatient) - (13)
                                                     You keep saying that it had nothing to do - (imric) - (12)
                                                         Sometimes this is just tiresome. - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                             How about using the "wrong" water fountain? - (drewk) - (4)
                                                                 So here we are... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                                     Re: So here we are... - (pwhysall)
                                                                     "Juvenile challenges..." - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                                                         yawn -NT - (bepatient)
                                                             He 'asked for it' so he shouldn't bring it to anyone's - (imric) - (5)
                                                                 But there is indeed a degree - (bepatient) - (4)
                                                                     Beep proves himself a keen student of history - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                                                         I declared nothing. -NT - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                             Sure you did - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                                 Wrong again - (bepatient)
                                             Flytalker forum - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                                 You didn't read the linked articles either. -NT - (bepatient) - (3)
                                                     Dude, I posted it. -NT - (Silverlock) - (2)
                                                         Go back further - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                             And this assigns motive how? - (Silverlock)
                                         It's called "Straw Man Rhetoric", Skip... - (jb4) - (1)
                                             You didn't read the linked articles. -NT - (bepatient)
                                     Move to strike as nonresponsive - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                         Very well said. (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                             It just might be a tie.. - (Ashton)
                     Minor nit.... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                         Prec\ufffdsamente (Brevity Award, too) -NT - (Ashton)
                     Yes, decapitation is bad.. OTOH_____ it's likely painless - (Ashton) - (2)
                         No, that is incorrect. - (bepatient)
                         OT: Dunno about that. - (Another Scott)

If this chat room were a game, it would be "half-life".
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