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New As defined by non-geniuses.
Training and practice are extremely important, but being in the "right place at the right time" is absolutely essential. Neither, however, is the key to genius.

What Mozart said he did routinely is so far out of the realm of "possible" commentators have consistently said, "that's what he said, but it isn't what he really meant".

What he said was he could hear in his mind each instrument's part of a symphony, distinctly and separately, note by note, and in relation to the other parts, right from the get-go. It remained only to write the parts down.

I know Mozart could do exactly what he said because I've done it a couple of times, under just the right conditions and on a much smaller scale. Of course I hadn't the training to write anything down and he did - but the training wasn't what got him the ability.

Whether Edison was a genious is debatable. He was most certainly a highly skilled businessman and tireless exploiter of other people's ideas (the 99% persperation), but a genius on the scale of his former underpaid and cheated employee Tesla? I think not.

In the words of a genuine completely certified genius (and one who had very few instructors in his field), Leonardo da Vinci, "Genius is the ability to do easily what others can not do at all".

Trying to generate genius by formula can certainly help develop the capabilities of talented individuals, but it isn't going to generate genius.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Naw, it's way easier than that, Gryg
you just need to drink a lot of genius juice ie- cognac. After you drink enough of that, you become a fucking genius!
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New So Casanova was a Cognac drinker?
New Don't doubt it
So was Jim Belushi when he was playing John Lennon, I hear....
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Agreed.
While it may take work to develop that talent, the talent has to be there to begin with. Some things simply cannot be learned.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Dunno.
Even prodigies have to be taught.

Perhaps it's a difference in emphasis, but I think more above average people can acquire a skill that we would call "genius" if they're passionate about it and are willing to work on it for years, and if they have good mentors. While it's true that enthusiasm can't totally compensate for a lack of talent, it's certainly very important. I'm sure we can all think of people who are consumed by their art or interest who never-the-less aren't very good at it.

The story reminded me of [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramanujan|Ramanujan]. Something about number theory clicked with him at an early age and he was consumed the desire to learn more about it. He was certainly amazing, but would he have progressed as far as quickly without Hardy's support?

I think the 1% inspiration/29% good instruction and encouragement/70% perspiration ratio seems about right to me.

But I think an assumption lurking in the background is: Must "genius" be demonstrated to others to be real? If so, then it's not surprising that the "perspiration" component is so large. Another question: Is the Perspiration a cause or an effect of "genius"? I think the article argues that it's a cause (and if the neural connections aspect is correct, that certainly makes sense). I think many regard it as an effect. I think that it's a consequence of the consuming interest, but not a cause of what we call genius - unless that spark of understanding and talent also is present.

Another interesting tidbit from the New Scientist article:

Studies of extraordinary performance run a wide gamut, employing memory tests, IQ comparisons, brain scans, retrospective interviews of high achievers and longitudinal studies of people who were identified in their youth as highly gifted. None bears out the myth of inherent genius.

Take intelligence. No accepted measure of innate or basic intelligence, whether IQ or other metrics, reliably predicts that a person will develop extraordinary ability. In other words, the IQs of the great would not predict their level of accomplishments, nor would their accomplishments predict their IQs. Studies of chess masters and highly successful artists, scientists and musicians usually find their IQs to be above average, typically in the 115 to 130 range, where some 14 per cent of the population reside - impressive enough, but hardly as rarefied as their achievements and abilities.

The converse - that high IQ does not ensure greatness - holds as well. This was shown in a study of adult graduates of New York City's Hunter College Elementary School, where an admission criterion was an IQ of at least 130 (achieved by a little over 1 per cent of the general population) and the mean IQ was 157 - "genius" territory by any scaling of IQ scores, and a level reached by perhaps 1 in 5000 people. Though the Hunter graduates were successful and reasonably content with their lives, they had not reached the heights of accomplishment, either individually or as a group, that their IQs might have suggested.


I've known a few people who were amazingly bright but who lost interest in learning in adolescence or college. They may have been "genius"-quality people, but they never developed their skills to be able to have genius-level works. I think that's the main thing I took take away from the story.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Well then call it what it is.
The title is bullshit.

Genius is born.

High achievement is earned.

Summary - Have a bit of talent, some good education, and work REALLY hard, and you will do very well in life.

Geez - you needed a study for that?

It does nothing more than pander to the general public (YOUR KID CAN BE GREAT!), pump for funds for education, and blame the final failure on the individual not working hard enough.

It is not a bad thing, just a bit misleading on the intro.
New Yeah, that's how I saw it too.
And on a personal basis we see a lot of that crap directed our way too. It's fine to brag about what a good soccer player your kid is, but as soon as you talk about how smart they are people feel threatened. And when people feel threatened like that, they will start to find ways to make themselves feel better.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Another illustration of the tyranny of headlines?
It's a pop piece on a technical book. The headline probably should have been expressed differently.

Let's look at the book in a little more [link|http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=052184097X&ss=exc|detail]:

More generally, over the last century there have been economic developments with public broadcasts of competitions and performances that generate sufficient revenue for a number of domains of expertise, such as sports and chess, to support professional full-time performers as well as coaches, trainers, and teachers. In these new domains, along with the traditional professions, current and past expert performers continue to be the primary teachers at the advanced level (masters), and their professional associations have the responsibility of certifying acceptable performance and the permission to practice. Accordingly, they hold the clout in thus influencing training in professional schools, such as law, medical, nursing, and business schools \ufffd \ufffdtesting is the tail that wags the dog\ufffd (Feltovich, personal communication) \ufffd as well as continuing education training (see Evetts, Meig, & Felt, Chapter 7 on sociological perspectives on expertise). The accumulation of knowledge about the structure and acquisition of expertise in a given domain, as well as knowledge about the instruction and training of future professionals, has occurred, until quite recently, almost exclusively within each domain with little cross-fertilization of domains in terms of teaching, learning methods, and skill-training techniques.

It is not immediately apparent what is generalizable across such diverse domains of expertise, such as music, sport, medicine, and chess. What could possibly be shared by the skills of playing difficult pieces by Chopin, running a mile in less than four minutes, and playing chess at a high level? The premise for a field studying expertise and expert performance is that there are sufficient similarities in the theoretical principles mediating the phenomena and the methods for studying them in different domains that it would be possible to propose a general theory of expertise and expert performance. All of these domains of expertise have been created by humans. Thus the accumulated knowledge and skills are likely to reflect similarities in structure that reflect both human biological and psychological factors, as well as cultural factors. This raises many challenging problems for methodologies used to describe the organization of knowledge and mechanisms and reveals the mediating expert performance that generalizes across domains.

Once we know how experts organize their knowledge and their performance, is it possible to improve the efficiency of learning to reach higher levels of expert performance in these domains? It should also be possible to answer why different individuals improve their performance at different rates and why different people reach very different levels of final achievement. Would a deeper understanding of the development and its mediating mechanisms make it possible to select individuals with unusual potential and to design better developmental environments to increase the proportion of performers who reach the highest levels? Would it be possible even to facilitate the development of those rare individuals who make major creative contributions to their respective domains?


So it's really a book about experts and expertise. But on the topic of innate ability, it continues:

Individual Differences in Mental Capacities

A widely accepted theoretical concept argues that general innate mental capacities mediate the attainment of exceptional performance in most domains of expertise. In his famous book, \ufffdHeriditary Genius,\ufffd Galton (1869/1979) proposed that across a wide range of domains of intellectual activity the same innate factors were required to attain outstanding achievement and the designation of being a genius. He analyzed eminent individuals in many domains in Great Britain and found that these eminent individuals were very often the offspring of a small number of families \ufffd with much higher frequency than could be expected by chance. The descendents from these families were much more likely to make eminent contributions in very diverse domains of activity, such as becoming famous politicians, scientists, judges, musicians, painters, and authors. This observation led Galton to suggest that there must be a heritable potential that allows some people to reach an exceptional level in any one of many different domains. After reviewing the evidence that height and body size were heritable Galton (1869/1979) argued: \ufffdNow, if this be the case with stature, then it will be true as regards every other physical feature \ufffd as circumference of head, size of brain, weight of grey matter, number of brain fibres, &c.; and thence, a step on which no physiologist will hesitate, as regards mental capacity\ufffd (pp. 31\ufffd32, emphasis added).

Galton clearly acknowledged the need for training to reach high levels of performance in any domain. However, he argued that improvements are rapid only in the beginning of training and that subsequent increases become increasingly smaller, until \ufffdmaximal performance becomes a rigidly determinate quantity\ufffd (p. 15). Galton developed a number of different mental tests of individual differences in mental capacity. Although he never related these measures to the objective performance of experts on particular real-world tasks, his views led to the common practice of using psychometric tests for admitting students into professional schools and academies for arts and sports with severely limited availability of slots. These tests of basic ability and talent were believed to identify the students with the capacity for reaching the highest levels.

In the 20th century scientists began the psychometric testing of large groups of experts to measure their powers of mental speed, memory, and intelligence. When the experts\ufffd performance was compared to control groups of comparable education, there was no evidence for Galton\ufffds hypothesis of a general superiority for experts because the demonstrated superiority of experts was found to be limited to specific aspects related to the particular domain of expertise. For example, the superiority of the chess experts\ufffd memory was constrained to regular chess positions and did not generalize to other types of materials (Djakow, Petrowski, & Rudik, 1927). Not even IQ could distinguish the best among chess players (Doll & Mayr, 1987) or the most successful and creative among artists and scientists (Taylor, 1975).

In a recent review, Ericsson and Lehmann (1996) found that (1) measures of basic mental capacities are not valid predictors of attainment of expert performance in a domain, (2) the superior performance of experts is often very domain specific, and transfer outside their narrow area of expertise is surprisingly limited, and (3) systematic differences between experts and less proficient individuals nearly always reflect attributes acquired by the experts during their lengthy training.


So, it probably would have been better to s/genius/expertise and expert performance/ but I think that with that substitution the conclusions are on a sound footing.

Cheers,
Scott.
New That's conflating two things.
As you brought up. Genius doesn't mean greatness, and vice versa. They are orthogonal, although genius can help make someone truly great.

To your other point, I've worked with a lot of "gifted" kids, and one thing they all seem to share is the ability to completely block out the outside world, even forgetting to sleep and eat, when they are working on something interesting to them. This is not *generally* a trait I see in other kids (or adults, for that matter).
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New You'll note
It took a couple of geniuses to point out the obvious to him.
New *choke* larf!
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Isn't that a sign of Genius? Thanks! :-D
New Good evidence the IQ test is a flawed measure
These test (which was originally formulated to "prove" that immagrants were inferior) measures something. Exactly what that is is debatable and the importance of that something is a lot less than some presume.

In any case the article, with it's emphasis on athletes and such, is not about genius but rather achievement. Now to be a recognized genius achievement is very important, and for achievement training, hard work and in particular desire are critical, but without the basis it is all for naught, like a guy with short legs aspiring to be a track star.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Interesting tacks you found -
alas, what we seem to lack thus far is a Genius of Mensuration ;^>

One of Feynman's lovable quirks was his ability to communicate with us ordinary plebs - all of his 'popular' books were.. well, Popular.. and about as far from quantum chromodynamics as the sex life of a Chess Master / a Feynman diagram?

In reading his stuff, I think his ordinary-speech hints are as good as any we get from the likes of other time-tested Genii (Einstein's hints were so often of adage grade - not the lingua franca of plebs.)
One phrase he was fond of was, "the pleasure of finding things out".

I know this pleasure. It [alone!] accounts for any single topic about which I ever eventually felt some level of 'understanding' == "standing under". His oft-related story about the ball in his wagon + his father's inspired 'answer' to the Why? - surely gives the major clue to his subsequent activities.

He Liked to Find Things Out\ufffd!

I submit that (as with Ramanujan et alia) THIS == that there exists a 'thing' One Chooses to put one's fullest Attention --> On!
-- is the closest we are apt to get to the necessary ingredient for a budding-genius ever to er, flower.

Yes, all the business about training applies to that fanciful learning curve (though no 'motivational speaker' need apply; it's Built-In) -- but while that may affect the slope somewhat, the Desire must be present and constant. Perhaps genius is about sustained focus - said one blind man measuring the elephant.

Nobody knows how to inculcate Desire (except small-d, for tawdry things you can buy and amass / or someone Else's 'religion', if a one is unimaginitive) - certainly there is seen to be no transference of, what a committee determines to be Right-Desire: that sort of quest is ~ what people seek gurus, about. To find out if... they Desire 'Truth' enough to work really hard to approach it [??]

If the Principle, The lower cannot see the Higher applies - IMO we aren't going to discover how to incubate a genius ... however much logical analysis we plunge the subject into. Still, we do learn from these essays something about 'mensuration' and about, how few significant figures there are, at the end of such calculations -- once corrected for metaphorical-error e666 tan \ufffd



Ah yesss - the IQ Test - why.. mine reached into Three Figures.




What if.. 'genius' is an entirely metaphysical matter, eh?
orthogonal to \ufffd orthogonality, perhaps?
:-)
New Ball, wagon and father's answer?
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New GIYF.
[link|http://www.fotuva.org/online/frameload.htm?/online/science.htm|Feynman's address, "What is Science" from 1966]:

When I was still pretty young--I don't know how old exactly--I had a ball in a wagon I was pulling, and I noticed something, so I ran up to my father to say that "When I pull the wagon, the ball runs to the back, and when I am running with the wagon and stop, the ball runs to the front. Why?"

How would you answer?

He said, "That, nobody knows." He said, "It's very general, though, it happens all the time to anything; anything that is moving tends to keep moving; anything standing still tries to maintain that condition. If you look close you will see the ball does not run to the back of the wagon where you start from standing still. It moves forward a bit too, but not as fast as the wagon. The back of the wagon catches up with the ball, which has trouble getting started moving. It's called inertia, that principle." I did run back to check, and sure enough, the ball didn't go backwards. He put the difference between what we know and what we call it very distinctly.

[...]


Feynman was a uber-master at explaining things. His little book, [link|http://www.amazon.com/QED-Strange-Princeton-Science-Library/dp/0691125759/sr=8-1/qid=1161131126/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4461508-0509612?ie=UTF8|QED], is beautiful.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yeah, one of my fav 'issues', too.
What he said was he could hear in his mind each instrument's part of a symphony, distinctly and separately, note by note, and in relation to the other parts, right from the get-go. It remained only to write the parts down.

And while Amadeus was necessarily a few accurate factoids hugely morphed into a marvelous bio.. I thought this particular (and metaphysical - as all 'explanation' would fail) was portrayed to perfection -- in the scene wherein Costanze has dropped her purloined collection of manuscripts; Salieri picks up one -- and instantly we are treated to the Sound of what he is reading!
[That snip alone is IMO immortal as 'movie scenes' go..]

These are Finished 'first drafts';
There are No Corrections!. It was all just Written Down At-once == oblig. !!!

Salieri begins to See! (alas, it is all magnificent imagineering for our startlement; so little that is credible/verifiable in the histories, comes near to such vignettes.)

ie. concur: the formula for Excellentizing Your Clamber Up the Bladder of Corporate Success begs this Question, too. One Mozart is all the rebuttal required.

(These kinds of analyses seem to go with the pandemic of digital-think, now smothering the planet with TLAs, addlepated algorithms and bizspeak rolled-together and called, Grow the ____ whatever-the-fuck.)


PS - similar eord struggles employed by physicists re variously, Johnny Non Neumann, Feynman et al, in attempting to limn 'genius'; most such efforts were just clever wordy synonyms for Magic. ~ "It wasn't that, I might become what ___ was like -?- if only my talents were greatly intensified..."



I happen to believe that Mozart was, simply in constant, intimate touch with The Celestial Spheres. Poor bastard - surrounded by dwarfs, little Shrubs strutting about and Counting Notes.
New Of course the whole Salieri thing is false.
Mozart and Salieri often cooperated and there's no actual evidence of serious problems. Of course Mozart was a little pissed when Salieri got a job he was after, but it never got bitter. Mozart selected Solieri as teacher for one of his sons and the story of a deathbed confession of killing Mozart is certified false be the people who were there.

Salieri was successful in cases where Mozart was not because he had carefully nurtured the necessary social skills.

Salieri was obviously a laid back sort of guy. He ended up as Beethoven's teacher because he was the only teacher in Vienna calm enough to put up with him.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Competent management type
Minimally capable, with social skills, thus ensuring financial success.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:45:17 AM EDT
New Actually, his music wasn't that bad either.
He's being performed quite a bit lately, though he hasn't quite made the mainstream repertory yet. At least one of his operas has been recorded in full for the first time recently as have other works.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Needs More Notes!
New No, too many notes. Take some of them out.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New I'll make a note of that



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:50:56 AM EDT
New Duly Noted.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Aww man, note again!
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Would you keep this silly note talk down to a minim ?
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New Every good boy deserves favoritism!
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New You're so crotchety.
Whereas I am the very model of breve-ity.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
New You're such a maestro! I quaver in your very presence.
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New I'm trilled just to be in this tremolo

New Well it has always been your forte...
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
New Re: Of course the whole Salieri thing is false.
No shit? Sorta like JFK by Oliver Stone? who'da thunk..

Of course the plot is fiction. And nobody knows what either man *really* thought of the other, as is the case re most of the famous and long-dead.

That does not alter the rightness of that scene - it is the reaction any serious composer would have, on seeing those 'drafts': Astonishment. Irrelevant to rest of the screenplay, nice romp that it was.

Jeez, do I have to argue the proposition that, "often fiction can express a truth better than a documentary?"

I give you then: Will S.
(if that Was his name. A work stands on its own, regardless of any putative bio of its author.)




Johann Nepomuk Hummel had a funner name - and wrote a bitchin concerto for clarino, cornet, trumpet - whatever was to come. Damn.. what a team: Mozart writing one for Nakariakov, today.
New Probably not on your "must see" list
You ever see "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"? They went back in time to grab famous dead dudes to come help with their history report. Took them to the mall to see what they thought about it. My favorite part was when Beethoven walked into the music store and found two racks full of synthsizers and went nuts on them.
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Remember title; missed it - probably shouldn't have
Just assumed it was teen-fluff. Bad to assume.

Agree re the Beethoven skit - he'd have Loved the possibilities! Maybe a hearing aid, while time-tripping. Imagine not Hearing the chorus He Wrote for the Ninth! or the applause - until someone turned him around, at the podium -- to see a ~mosh pit/audience.

(Imagine too, a synthesizer being played by someone who actually knows how to compose Music! As in Switched-on Bach in the Moog days; 'course they were plagiarizing. Some neat stuff there - have an LP or 2.)

New Oh it *was* teen fluff
But to this day I can't watch it without laughing.
===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
     How to be a genius. - (Another Scott) - (36)
         As defined by non-geniuses. - (Andrew Grygus) - (35)
             Naw, it's way easier than that, Gryg - (jake123) - (2)
                 So Casanova was a Cognac drinker? -NT - (tonytib) - (1)
                     Don't doubt it - (jake123)
             Agreed. - (admin) - (12)
                 Dunno. - (Another Scott) - (11)
                     Well then call it what it is. - (broomberg) - (2)
                         Yeah, that's how I saw it too. - (admin)
                         Another illustration of the tyranny of headlines? - (Another Scott)
                     That's conflating two things. - (admin) - (3)
                         You'll note - (broomberg) - (2)
                             *choke* larf! -NT - (admin)
                             Isn't that a sign of Genius? Thanks! :-D -NT - (Another Scott)
                     Good evidence the IQ test is a flawed measure - (Andrew Grygus)
                     Interesting tacks you found - - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Ball, wagon and father's answer? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                             GIYF. - (Another Scott)
             Yeah, one of my fav 'issues', too. - (Ashton) - (18)
                 Of course the whole Salieri thing is false. - (Andrew Grygus) - (17)
                     Competent management type - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                         Actually, his music wasn't that bad either. - (Andrew Grygus) - (11)
                             Needs More Notes! -NT - (ChrisR) - (10)
                                 No, too many notes. Take some of them out. -NT - (bepatient) - (9)
                                     I'll make a note of that -NT - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                         Duly Noted. -NT - (bepatient) - (7)
                                             Aww man, note again! -NT - (drewk) - (6)
                                                 Would you keep this silly note talk down to a minim ? -NT - (Meerkat) - (5)
                                                     Every good boy deserves favoritism! -NT - (bepatient)
                                                     You're so crotchety. - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                         You're such a maestro! I quaver in your very presence. -NT - (Meerkat) - (2)
                                                             I'm trilled just to be in this tremolo -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                 Well it has always been your forte... -NT - (Meerkat)
                     Re: Of course the whole Salieri thing is false. - (Ashton) - (3)
                         Probably not on your "must see" list - (drewk) - (2)
                             Remember title; missed it - probably shouldn't have - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 Oh it *was* teen fluff - (drewk)

Shown here is a tranquil scene in the north woods. A beaver has just completed its dam, two black bears forage for food, a swallow-tailed butterfly flutters in the foreground, a loon swims quietly by, and a kingfisher searches for a tasty fish.
467 ms