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New 'Why Johnny can't code' - by er, David Brin. In Salon.
Yup, [link|http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2006/09/14/basic/?source=newsletter| Salon].
Why Johnny can't code

BASIC used to be on every computer a child touched -- but today there's no easy way for kids to get hooked on programming.

By David Brin



Sept. 14, 2006 | For three years -- ever since my son Ben was in fifth grade -- he and I have engaged in a quixotic but determined quest: We've searched for a simple and straightforward way to get the introductory programming language BASIC to run on either my Mac or my PC.

Why on Earth would we want to do that, in an era of glossy animation-rendering engines, game-design ogres and sophisticated avatar worlds? Because if you want to give young students a grounding in how computers actually work, there's still nothing better than a little experience at line-by-line programming.

Only, quietly and without fanfare, or even any comment or notice by software pundits, we have drifted into a situation where almost none of the millions of personal computers in America offers a line-programming language simple enough for kids to pick up fast. Not even the one that was a software lingua franca on nearly all machines, only a decade or so ago. And that is not only a problem for Ben and me; it is a problem for our nation and civilization.

Oh, today's desktops and laptops offer plenty of other fancy things -- a dizzying array of sophisticated services that grow more dazzling by the week. Heck, I am [link|http://www.holocenechat.com/| part of that creative spasm].

Only there's a rub. Most of these later innovations were brought to us by programmers who first honed their abilities with line-programming languages like BASIC. Yes, they mostly use higher level languages now, stacking and organizing object-oriented services, or using other hifalutin processes that come prepackaged and ready to use, the way an artist uses pre-packaged paints. (Very few painters still grind their own pigments. Should they?)

And yet the thought processes that today's best programmers learned at the line-coding level still serve these designers well. Renowned tech artist and digital-rendering wizard Sheldon Brown, leader of the Center for Computing in the Arts, says: "In my Electronics for the Arts course, each student built their own single board computer, whose CPU contained a BASIC ROM [a chip permanently encoded with BASIC software]. We first did this with 8052's and then with a chip called the BASIC Stamp. The PC was just the terminal interface to these computers, whose programs would be burned into flash memory. These lucky art students were grinding their own computer architectures along with their code pigments -- along their way to controlling robotic sculptures and installation environments."

But today, very few young people are learning those deeper patterns. Indeed, they seem to be forbidden any access to that world at all.

And yet, they are tantalized! Ben has long complained that his math textbooks all featured little type-it-in-yourself programs at the end of each chapter -- alongside the problem sets -- offering the student a chance to try out some simple algorithm on a computer. Usually, it's an equation or iterative process illustrating the principle that the chapter discussed. These "TRY IT IN BASIC" exercises often take just a dozen or so lines of text. The aim is both to illustrate the chapter's topic (e.g. statistics) and to offer a little taste of programming.

Only no student tries these exercises. Not my son or any of his classmates. Nor anybody they know. Indeed, I would be shocked if more than a few dozen students in the whole nation actually type in those lines that are still published in countless textbooks across the land. Those who want to (like Ben) simply cannot.

Next page: "There are still BASIC programs in textbooks?"

Now, I have been complaining about this for three years. But whenever I mention the problem to some computer industry maven at a conference or social gathering, the answer is always the same: "There are still BASIC programs in textbooks?"

At least a dozen senior Microsoft officials have given me the exact same response. After taking this to be a symptom of cluelessness in the textbook industry, they then talk about how obsolete BASIC is, and how many more things you can do with higher-level languages. "Don't worry," they invariably add, "the newer textbooks won't have any of those little BASIC passages in them."

All of which is absolutely true. BASIC is actually quite tedious and absurd for getting done the vast array of vivid and ambitious goals that are typical of a modern programmer. Clearly, any kid who wants to accomplish much in the modern world would not use it for very long. And, of course, it is obvious that newer texts will abandon "TRY IT IN BASIC" as a teaching technique, if they haven't already.

But all of this misses the point. Those textbook exercises were easy, effective, universal, pedagogically interesting -- and nothing even remotely like them can be done with any language other than BASIC. Typing in a simple algorithm yourself, seeing exactly how the computer calculates and iterates in a manner you could duplicate with pencil and paper -- say, running an experiment in coin flipping, or making a dot change its position on a screen, propelled by math and logic, and only by math and logic: All of this is priceless. As it was priceless 20 years ago. Only 20 years ago, it was physically possible for millions of kids to do it. Today it is not.

In effect, we have allowed a situation to develop that is like a civilization devouring its seed corn. If an enemy had set out to do this to us -- quietly arranging so that almost no school child in America can tinker with line coding on his or her own -- any reasonably patriotic person would have called it an act of war.

Am I being overly dramatic? Then consider a shift in perspective.

[More ... ]


Step Right Up, Folks!

What am I bid for this Gen-you-whine IBM\ufffd Ex Tee computer and DOS 2.x-5.x boot disks?

Let's get the bidding started at $1000 per child-seat
(notice the pretty orange dongle and the finely crafted fingerprint access module, at a mere $500/unit-sale.)
New whats wrong with asembler?
line by line building a instruction set that does foo. Lets you understand gate arrays at the lowest level of how shit works.
As far as basic goes javascript does the same thing. If I didnt recognise the name I would think he didnt know much about computers. Oh, he's a programmer, that explains it :-)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Cute, but...
It's not the "Gods of IT" he should be looking to. Those people are concerned about, as he said, getting stuff done in high-level languages cheaply and quickly.

The kind of thing he's looking for is still alive and well... in Linux. That's where the hackers are, the people who care about how the machine works at all levels.

I just spent all of 30 seconds finding, downloading, and using [link|https://sourceforge.net/projects/bwbasic/|Bywater BASIC] to print out "foo" in a loop (10 print "foo", 20 goto 10 natch).

He's looking at the wrong platform to provide that kind of experience. Granted, that's partly his point, but it's not our fault we have a better platform to play on now.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Novices don't know Linux
Though PCs that do real work use Linux (or other flavours of Unix), novices start off on Windows. A beginner's programming language will have to be some pissant Windows GUI thing.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Novices didn't know the Atari either
I got mine at 12 without knowing a thing about it. So what?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Most novices have Windows but not Linux
You started with an Atari and migrated much later on. Most novices now will start with Windows and migrate much later on when they're at advanced level. If you want beginners to understand some basics of programming then move on, it's going to have to start with Windows. You would not start a beginner with hacker grade, C++ on Linux projects.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Live CDs are nice.
Put it in, use it. Easy.

I wouldn't start anyone on C++ regardless, for one thing, and certainly not on Linux. BASIC or Python.

Brin went out and bought a C64. Why not just put a LiveCD in your Windows box?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Why bother with a different OS to learn basic programming?
Why use a temporary copy of Linux (or BSD or Solaris) to encourage teenagers to learn how to program? Another OS is something they'd have to learn before they can learn the programming we want them to learn in the first place. Learning another OS is good but it'd discourage those who want to be programmers rather than administrators. Just give 'em a Windows programming language.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New What's there to learn?
Click this icon to open a shell. Type "bwbasic". Have fun.

Please explain to me how this is more intrinsically befuddling than the same operation in Windows or OS X.

The whole point of the operation is learning. Why are you opposed to it?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New How to write a DB app with front end
Beginners, especially children, will want to learn how to write a GUI front end to a simple, DB-based app, as well as numeric algorithms, so they can do something of minor use on their preferred OS. Or develop something for their mother's preferred OS, which is going to be Windows. Or just doing this with WinAmp playing their favourite music. Or whilst typing on MSN. Or whilst searching the web for hints. It'd be better if the programming environment ran in the OS they are used to.

Besides, rebooting into another OS, even direct off a DVD, running the language then rebooting again is still a barrier compared to just running the language.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Not a kid.
Kids could care less about useful or databases. My son wanted to write games and goofy stuff (like secret code prompts, Q & A programs, etc).

At the point when he started, he had to go into the other room and boot the *Windows* machine to use GameMaker (ironic, non?). This was not a barrier to him. He's a kid.

Do you have any experience watching kids learn to program, or are you just guessing here?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Anything with a GUI is *already* a game
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New So, he was using a Windows environment?
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Had same idea, but thought of Cygwin
You can download a free GCC that speaks some variant of about 6 different "line-programming languages", including (gak!) FORTRAN. Haven't looked recently, but there may even be a BASIC interpreter inthere somewhere.

And we can argue for weeks about the relative merits of C, but since it is (still) the lingua franca of lingua francas, Ben should probabaly look at that as a starting point.
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New Solving the wrong problem
I don't think he's interested in training another coder with the current industry standard. He wants to teach him good, basic (no pun intended) theory. Pointers and memory management are implementation details that you'd have to learn first, before you ever get to focus on the logic of it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Point taken...
...so to eliminate that, and yet have a language that surpasses toy status, one could try FORTRAN. No pointers, no data structures (well, that's not entirely true, but is Ben's brain going to be rotted with COMMON segments at that tender age? I rather think not), and a syntax that, like BASIC's, only a mother could love. The only downside to FORTRAN vis-a-vis BASIC is the dreaded, gawd-awful FORMAT statement. But Ben's clever enough to handle that, innit he?
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New A beginner's programming language will have to be on YouTube
Too much of computer life these days for kids, if you believe the hype, seems to revolve around MySpace and YouTube (and text messaging on phones). If someone is really interested in getting masses of kids hooked on programming, they need to figure out a way to create a buzz using YouTube or MySpace. If the interest is sparked, people will download the tools.

I think it'll be a difficult task, though. There are too many other entertaining distractions for most to consider spending the time.

Plus, the job prospects aren't quite as wide-open as they were...

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who started out on a time-shared mainframe BASIC in high school, had a math course with Pascal in college, picked up a smattering of Fortran and can fumble around in C a little, but hasn't moved much beyond that. Not having my own PC at home until I was ~ 32 might have had something to do with it.)
New My son got started because of video games
He wanted to program them too, so we found a version of BASIC for games (GameMaker) and he went at it. Later on he moved to Python with pyGame.

This is the same reason I got started when I was his age.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New (Almost) same here
My first home PC was ~32. But I had been working with them for several years by then. Three reasons I never got one.

1) Due to the nature of my work, I always had the newest, fastest computer at work. Getting something comparable at home would have been expensive, and I didn't want to come home and work on something crappy.

2) I worked with a guy who got a Pentium when they first came out. Spent like $4k on it. On a payment plan. About 6 months later he was bitching because he saw an ad for something better than what he had, for less than what he still owed. I didn't want to fall into that trap.

3) I'm not a gamer. Most of the heavy work I've ever needed has actually been on a server, which I just remote into anyway.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Robots - Mindstorm, etc
What I said here:

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=267654|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=267654]



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New BASIC???? - I shudder!
Turbo Pascal 5.5 is a free download from Borland.

"It is impossible to teach good programming habits to a person with a previous exposure to BASIC".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New BASIC is not that bad.
"It is impossible to teach good programming habits to a person with a previous exposure to BASIC".


Not so. I think the trick is early exposure to multiple variations of BASIC. That shows the limitations of each one and thus shows the limitations of the language as a whole.

It becomes a problem when the programmer in question won't move beyond BASIC.

Wade.
"Insert crowbar. Apply force."
New How wonderfully biased you are...
But wrong.

I learned on BASIC, on an Atari 800 (and then IBM PC XTs or whatever they were back then).

BASIC has its place. I wouldn't use it now, but back then it was fine.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New The first language I learned was BASIC - and . . .
. . I rejected it. It just wasn't designed the way I thought a language should be. I still have my original green Microsoft BASIC manual and the 8" CP/M-80 floppy BASIC came on.

I looked at several other languages including Lisp. Then I ordered JRT Pascal and found it a language I could work with.

Soon I replaced that with Borland Turbo Pascal 1.0 (again purchased on 8" CP/M-80 floppy) and that was even a whole lot better.

Years later I was planning to migrate to Modula II (though that would have required some significant code rewriting) but instead decided to not spend so much time programming and get on with life.

Today, a $10 million/year company still runs on my old Turbo Pascal inventory code because no programming house has been willing to say they could match the performance. This company's competitors, many much larger, are mystified how his sales people can instantly quote on the phone stuff that takes them an hour to figure out.

So yes, I'm biased - and I'm probably going to stay that way.



[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Thus proving my point.
You've had exposure to BASIC. At the very least it teaches you what not to do once you decide to do something serious.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Well that it can . . . if you're paying attention.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I started on BASIC as well
Some variant that ran on IBM mainframes under CMS initially, later AppleSoft BASIC on the Apple II.

I used to wander into Radio Shacks as a kid and enter obnoxious infinite loops on all the TRS-80s to annoy the salespeople.

So you can recover from it.

My progression was BASIC, Pascal, HyperCard/HyperTalk (I was SUCH a stackhead for a couple years), FORTRAN77, C, C++ Smalltalk, Java, ObjectiveC, and lately JavaScript.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New I used to do the same, as an adult :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New And I, too...although it was called FOCAL on a PDP-8
(in 1968...) And Dykstra was right!
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New Just use some old version of Delphi or VB
I started with BASIC on a ZX81. I think it's stupid that a general purpose, programmable computer is not sold with a general purpose, programming language. An early version of Delphi or VB with some database designer would allow novices to knock off simple stuff within half an hour. It makes the system appear more useful and it's not going to undermine professional programs.

I've always considered the lack of VB 3 or something to be yet more evidence that Microsoft are run by sharks, not tech lovers.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New same here
Wang PCS II Basic
TRS 80
And a couple of other variants.

and

COBOL
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
New PHP
PHP picks up a lot of that market today. Kids that a two decades ago might hvae been typing in Basic on a Trash 80 are building their own web sites, and using PHP to add the fancy stuff.

In some ways PHP is good for this, it takes care of a lot of the framework and foundation stuff for you so that you only have to concentrate on the what you care about, and because it embeds into web pages so well you can build up your site in little bits. But in other ways it sucks, it has security problems, it does not have a particularly consistant or balanced library, the language itself has some oddities.

Jay
New I still like Pascal for teaching
That's what it was designed for, after all. I still like the idea of a 'main' at the top that pretty much tells you what it does.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New The "Advanced C " columnist in Computer Languages . . .
. . in the next to last issue when they knew the magazine was going to cease publication admitted

"I teach C, that's what people want, but when I program for a client I do it in Pascal. Why? A year later when the client wants a change, if it's in C I can stare at the code all day and still not be sure what it does. If it's in Pascal I know exactly what it does in just a few minutes."

Of course "Standard Pascal" is not very useful. Sometimes typecasting really is needed, and pointers often, but extended Pascals like Borland's provide all these things - you only need to use them when you really need to.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Ick - FWIW they're trying to get Squeak on the $100 PC
Which is good because it will give kids a simulation environment where they can just [link|http://squeakland.org|draw stuff], give the drawings behaviors, and see how things work.

Plus, there's a new authoring environment called [link|http://futureofthebook.org/index.php?frame=http%3A//futureofthebook.org/projects/|Sophie] that will be released soon.

And some parents I know are having great success teaching their kids programming with [link|http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Programming-Robots-Technology-Action/dp/1590594916|Learn Programming With Robots], which I think is going to be the big draw for kids. Robots. Lego mindstorms kits and such.



[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]

[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]

[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
New You just need to know where to look
VBA in MS Office is a Basic.
Java Script in your favorite browser is a better language than Basic could ever be.

And, once Johnny got into coding, the Internet is wide open.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

     'Why Johnny can't code' - by er, David Brin. In Salon. - (Ashton) - (35)
         whats wrong with asembler? - (boxley)
         Cute, but... - (admin) - (17)
             Novices don't know Linux - (warmachine) - (16)
                 Novices didn't know the Atari either - (admin) - (11)
                     Most novices have Windows but not Linux - (warmachine) - (10)
                         Live CDs are nice. - (admin) - (9)
                             Why bother with a different OS to learn basic programming? - (warmachine) - (8)
                                 What's there to learn? - (admin) - (7)
                                     How to write a DB app with front end - (warmachine) - (3)
                                         Not a kid. - (admin) - (2)
                                             Anything with a GUI is *already* a game -NT - (drewk)
                                             So, he was using a Windows environment? -NT - (warmachine)
                                     Had same idea, but thought of Cygwin - (jb4) - (2)
                                         Solving the wrong problem - (drewk) - (1)
                                             Point taken... - (jb4)
                 A beginner's programming language will have to be on YouTube - (Another Scott) - (3)
                     My son got started because of video games - (admin)
                     (Almost) same here - (drewk)
                     Robots - Mindstorm, etc - (tuberculosis)
         BASIC???? - I shudder! - (Andrew Grygus) - (8)
             BASIC is not that bad. - (static)
             How wonderfully biased you are... - (admin) - (3)
                 The first language I learned was BASIC - and . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                     Thus proving my point. - (admin) - (1)
                         Well that it can . . . if you're paying attention. -NT - (Andrew Grygus)
             I started on BASIC as well - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 I used to do the same, as an adult :-) -NT - (boxley)
                 And I, too...although it was called FOCAL on a PDP-8 - (jb4)
         Just use some old version of Delphi or VB - (warmachine) - (1)
             same here - (jbrabeck)
         PHP - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
             I still like Pascal for teaching - (drewk) - (2)
                 The "Advanced C " columnist in Computer Languages . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                 Ick - FWIW they're trying to get Squeak on the $100 PC - (tuberculosis)
         You just need to know where to look - (Arkadiy)

And now you see that Evil will always win, because Good is stupid.
307 ms