Post #267,587
9/14/06 11:22:49 PM
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Cute, but...
It's not the "Gods of IT" he should be looking to. Those people are concerned about, as he said, getting stuff done in high-level languages cheaply and quickly.
The kind of thing he's looking for is still alive and well... in Linux. That's where the hackers are, the people who care about how the machine works at all levels.
I just spent all of 30 seconds finding, downloading, and using [link|https://sourceforge.net/projects/bwbasic/|Bywater BASIC] to print out "foo" in a loop (10 print "foo", 20 goto 10 natch).
He's looking at the wrong platform to provide that kind of experience. Granted, that's partly his point, but it's not our fault we have a better platform to play on now.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,617
9/15/06 5:32:51 AM
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Novices don't know Linux
Though PCs that do real work use Linux (or other flavours of Unix), novices start off on Windows. A beginner's programming language will have to be some pissant Windows GUI thing.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #267,621
9/15/06 7:58:26 AM
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Novices didn't know the Atari either
I got mine at 12 without knowing a thing about it. So what?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,630
9/15/06 9:18:29 AM
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Most novices have Windows but not Linux
You started with an Atari and migrated much later on. Most novices now will start with Windows and migrate much later on when they're at advanced level. If you want beginners to understand some basics of programming then move on, it's going to have to start with Windows. You would not start a beginner with hacker grade, C++ on Linux projects.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #267,635
9/15/06 10:08:11 AM
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Live CDs are nice.
Put it in, use it. Easy.
I wouldn't start anyone on C++ regardless, for one thing, and certainly not on Linux. BASIC or Python.
Brin went out and bought a C64. Why not just put a LiveCD in your Windows box?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,643
9/15/06 11:42:37 AM
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Why bother with a different OS to learn basic programming?
Why use a temporary copy of Linux (or BSD or Solaris) to encourage teenagers to learn how to program? Another OS is something they'd have to learn before they can learn the programming we want them to learn in the first place. Learning another OS is good but it'd discourage those who want to be programmers rather than administrators. Just give 'em a Windows programming language.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #267,644
9/15/06 11:49:00 AM
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What's there to learn?
Click this icon to open a shell. Type "bwbasic". Have fun.
Please explain to me how this is more intrinsically befuddling than the same operation in Windows or OS X.
The whole point of the operation is learning. Why are you opposed to it?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,647
9/15/06 12:22:22 PM
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How to write a DB app with front end
Beginners, especially children, will want to learn how to write a GUI front end to a simple, DB-based app, as well as numeric algorithms, so they can do something of minor use on their preferred OS. Or develop something for their mother's preferred OS, which is going to be Windows. Or just doing this with WinAmp playing their favourite music. Or whilst typing on MSN. Or whilst searching the web for hints. It'd be better if the programming environment ran in the OS they are used to.
Besides, rebooting into another OS, even direct off a DVD, running the language then rebooting again is still a barrier compared to just running the language.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #267,650
9/15/06 12:31:50 PM
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Not a kid.
Kids could care less about useful or databases. My son wanted to write games and goofy stuff (like secret code prompts, Q & A programs, etc).
At the point when he started, he had to go into the other room and boot the *Windows* machine to use GameMaker (ironic, non?). This was not a barrier to him. He's a kid.
Do you have any experience watching kids learn to program, or are you just guessing here?
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,652
9/15/06 12:42:35 PM
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Anything with a GUI is *already* a game
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #267,656
9/15/06 12:54:39 PM
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So, he was using a Windows environment?
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #268,444
9/23/06 1:07:27 PM
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Had same idea, but thought of Cygwin
You can download a free GCC that speaks some variant of about 6 different "line-programming languages", including (gak!) FORTRAN. Haven't looked recently, but there may even be a BASIC interpreter inthere somewhere.
And we can argue for weeks about the relative merits of C, but since it is (still) the lingua franca of lingua francas, Ben should probabaly look at that as a starting point.
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
— Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #268,451
9/23/06 3:16:43 PM
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Solving the wrong problem
I don't think he's interested in training another coder with the current industry standard. He wants to teach him good, basic (no pun intended) theory. Pointers and memory management are implementation details that you'd have to learn first, before you ever get to focus on the logic of it.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #268,594
9/25/06 8:34:41 AM
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Point taken...
...so to eliminate that, and yet have a language that surpasses toy status, one could try FORTRAN. No pointers, no data structures (well, that's not entirely true, but is Ben's brain going to be rotted with COMMON segments at that tender age? I rather think not), and a syntax that, like BASIC's, only a mother could love. The only downside to FORTRAN vis-a-vis BASIC is the dreaded, gawd-awful FORMAT statement. But Ben's clever enough to handle that, innit he?
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
— Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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Post #267,622
9/15/06 8:22:49 AM
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A beginner's programming language will have to be on YouTube
Too much of computer life these days for kids, if you believe the hype, seems to revolve around MySpace and YouTube (and text messaging on phones). If someone is really interested in getting masses of kids hooked on programming, they need to figure out a way to create a buzz using YouTube or MySpace. If the interest is sparked, people will download the tools.
I think it'll be a difficult task, though. There are too many other entertaining distractions for most to consider spending the time.
Plus, the job prospects aren't quite as wide-open as they were...
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who started out on a time-shared mainframe BASIC in high school, had a math course with Pascal in college, picked up a smattering of Fortran and can fumble around in C a little, but hasn't moved much beyond that. Not having my own PC at home until I was ~ 32 might have had something to do with it.)
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Post #267,625
9/15/06 8:37:09 AM
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My son got started because of video games
He wanted to program them too, so we found a version of BASIC for games (GameMaker) and he went at it. Later on he moved to Python with pyGame.
This is the same reason I got started when I was his age.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #267,627
9/15/06 9:16:18 AM
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(Almost) same here
My first home PC was ~32. But I had been working with them for several years by then. Three reasons I never got one.
1) Due to the nature of my work, I always had the newest, fastest computer at work. Getting something comparable at home would have been expensive, and I didn't want to come home and work on something crappy.
2) I worked with a guy who got a Pentium when they first came out. Spent like $4k on it. On a payment plan. About 6 months later he was bitching because he saw an ad for something better than what he had, for less than what he still owed. I didn't want to fall into that trap.
3) I'm not a gamer. Most of the heavy work I've ever needed has actually been on a server, which I just remote into anyway.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #267,655
9/15/06 12:48:00 PM
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Robots - Mindstorm, etc
What I said here:
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=267654|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=267654]
[link|http://www.blackbagops.net|Black Bag Operations Log]
[link|http://www.objectiveclips.com|Artificial Intelligence]
[link|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html|Scrutinizer]
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