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Post #263,448 by drewk 8/2/06 2:08:27 PM Reply	You haven't answered yet Israel has killed hundreds of civilians. Is it impossible for you to feel sorrow at that? [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=263284\|Still waiting.] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #263,526 by bluke 8/3/06 12:17:55 AM Reply	Re: You haven't answered yet No, I feel sorrow, but the alternative is worse. The fact is that the other side feels no sorrow. The Israeli government expressed their regret for killing civilians, I haven't heard any regret from Hezbollah. In 3 weeks of war about 700 hundre civilians have been killed. If Israel wanted to kill civilians the number would be a lot higher. The US killed 60,000 people with 1 bombing raid in WWII. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." -- Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel 1969-1974.
Post #263,532 by bepatient 8/3/06 1:17:11 AM Reply	Will you stop the WW comparisons? It is NOT like for like. Your country is claiming this is a DEFENSIVE action. There was no claim by the US that our campaign against Germany was anything but offensive. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,540 by bluke 8/3/06 6:27:55 AM Reply	Last I checked ... a defensive action has more justification then an offensive one.
Post #263,557 by bepatient 8/3/06 9:19:45 AM Reply	Whatever. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,538 by systems 8/3/06 5:22:46 AM 8/3/06 5:43:05 AM Reply	Re: You haven't answered yet I would like to comment on this ... "The Israeli government expressed their regret for killing civilians, I haven't heard any regret from Hezbollah." If they only did it once, by mistake, or once because by doing so they save israeli civilian lives, I would have believed their regrets. But they do it repeatedly and it doesn't save israel civilian life, or help israel future in any human way. You haven't heard regrets from Hezbollah, I really regret this, I do watch nasra-Allah speaches on Al Jazeera, american and I guess european news probably don't air them because they accuse them of being terrorist (of course you know that here in the middle east we dont(well the majority of arabs/muslim/copts/catholics dont, only the jews maybe do)) Anyway, nasra-Allah clearly said 3 things 1. they only hit civilians, in retaliation for what israel did, i.e. israel start it, hizb-Allah kidnapped 2 soldier to have a power to negotiate the release of 3 lebanese detained by israel, they only did it to release the lebanese, israel answered by ruining the lebanese infrastructure and killing many many civilians, in day one they killed i think 20 civilian, israel started it, this is very important, hezbollah just answered in the same language, which is bad, i am not sayin its good, but, using ur logic its justified. 2. nasra-Allah also said, that they could have hurt a chemical factory thingie which would have led to more civilian life loss on the sive of israel by they did not. 3. he called israel to face them on the groud using ground combatant, which we can all see would have definitly, limited civilian life loss. In conclusion I find hizb-Allah more caring about the civilian, and show more restrain On a different piont, i counted the number of losses israel kill almost 700 80% civilians hizb-Allah killed 50 33% civilians So israel is not even trying to limit the civilian life loss. hizb-Allah is more restrained Israel will only have peace when and if the arabs start to love them, Golda Meir doesnt seem to think this is possible, and its obviously not an objective, with all the killing. From what Golda Meir said, if the arabs fear us, they will make peace with us. Well we cant fear you, and we dont fear death ... Israel need a leader who think that its possible that one day the arabs will like israel, and only then they will have peace. We all need to comprimise, Arabs need to deal with their pride and believe that they have to comprimise and that comprising doesnt take away anything from them. Israel need to know that it need Arabs to love them, and that they could if Israel comprimise. Look at what you do, how can we love you? we cant ... really I can't, you are criminals. I think Israel need to regret its past, punish few ppl (war criminals) and comprimise on Jerusalem, and the Arabs need to forget the past and focus on the future. Its hard to forget the past too much blood, been spilled, and to many ppl arabs and muslims suffered misjustice, on the hand of israel or tyrant rulers supported by the west, who fear islam. Honestly I dont think this will ever happen, we are too dumb to do the right thing, both israelies and arabs, yes the israelies are stupid, look at what they do, its stupid, sooooooooooooooooo stupid, KILLING CIVILIANS and HOPE for peace, STUUUUUUUUUUPID SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO STUPID Maybe peace is overrated! I, being, poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams. W. B. Yeats, He Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven Edited by systems Aug. 3, 2006, 05:43:05 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #263,541 by bluke 8/3/06 6:35:45 AM Reply	Re: You haven't answered yet Here is a rebuttal point by point: If they only did it once, by mistake, or once because by doing so they save israeli civilian lives, I would have believed their regrets. But they do it repeatedly and it doesn't save israel civilian life, or help israel future in any human way. Hezbollah is doing this on purpose. They are purposely firing from civilian areas in teh hope of causing civilian casualties. Jan Egland from the UN said the following: "Mr. Egeland accused Hezbollah of \ufffdcowardly blending\ufffd among women and children. \ufffdI heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this,\ufffd he said. \ufffdI don\ufffdt think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.\ufffd You haven't heard regrets from Hezbollah, I really regret this, I do watch nasra-Allah speaches on Al Jazeera, american and I guess european news probably don't air them because they accuse them of being terrorist (of course you know that here in the middle east we dont(well the majority of arabs/muslim/copts/catholics dont, only the jews maybe do)) Anyway, nasra-Allah clearly said 3 things 1. they only hit civilians, in retaliation for what israel did, i.e. israel start it, hizb-Allah kidnapped 2 soldier to have a power to negotiate the release of 3 lebanese detained by israel, they only did it to release the lebanese, israel answered by ruining the lebanese infrastructure and killing many many civilians, in day one they killed i think 20 civilian, israel started it, this is very important, hezbollah just answered in the same language, which is bad, i am not sayin its good, but, using ur logic its justified. This is simply a lie. Hezbollah attacked Israeli civilians before Israel retaliated for teh kidnappings. 2. nasra-Allah also said, that they could have hurt a chemical factory thingie which would have led to more civilian life loss on the sive of israel by they did not. The rockets Hezbollah has are not accurate and the only way he can hit a specific military target is sheer luck 3. he called israel to face them on the groud using ground combatant, which we can all see would have definitly, limited civilian life loss. Not the way Hezbollah fights hiding among women and children and in mosques In conclusion I find hizb-Allah more caring about the civilian, and show more restrain On a different piont, i counted the number of losses israel kill almost 700 80% civilians hizb-Allah killed 50 33% civilians So israel is not even trying to limit the civilian life loss. hizb-Allah is more restrained Wrong again. The reason why so few Israeli civilians are being killed is because the government actually cares about them and therefore built bomb shelters. Every apartment built in Israel since 1991 has by law had to have a secure room. This is why so few Israelis have been killed. Israel will only have peace when and if the arabs start to love them, Golda Meir doesnt seem to think this is possible, and its obviously not an objective, with all the killing. From what Golda Meir said, if the arabs fear us, they will make peace with us. Well we cant fear you, and we dont fear death ... Israel need a leader who think that its possible that one day the arabs will like israel, and only then they will have peace. We all need to comprimise, Arabs need to deal with their pride and believe that they have to comprimise and that comprising doesnt take away anything from them. Israel need to know that it need Arabs to love them, and that they could if Israel comprimise. The leader of Iran, the patron of Hezbollah has called for the elimination of Israel. Not much room for compromise.
Post #263,545 by boxley 8/3/06 7:32:14 AM Reply	personally I think you are both screwed hope ya all live long and prosper though, thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,561 by bepatient 8/3/06 9:29:48 AM Reply	Rebuttal with your own quote But they do it repeatedly and it doesn't save israel civilian life, or help israel future in any human way. Hezbollah is doing this on purpose. They are purposely firing from civilian areas in teh hope of causing civilian casualties. Jan Egland from the UN said the following: "Mr. Egeland accused Hezbollah of \ufffdcowardly blending\ufffd among women and children. And in retaliation, Israel fires precision munitions at those women and children, EVEN KNOWING The rockets Hezbollah has are not accurate and the only way he can hit a specific military target is sheer luck In fact, the only way they hit ANYTHING is sheer luck and the casualties that would occur if Israel STOPPED ALL FIGHTING and simply shut the borders and went house to house are next to nil. So justify this all you like. Israel is openly attacking civilian targets and blaming it on the enemy....and wondering why, oh why, does the world think this is a bad thing. If you can't figure this out...and your leaders cannot figure out that this situation is irreparably harming Israel's future, then there is no hope...and I would find somewhere else to live...because your home is going to become far too dangerous a place. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,567 by bluke 8/3/06 9:47:22 AM 8/3/06 9:50:54 AM Reply	Wrong Israel fired them at Hezbollah targets who were hiding behind women and children. I will tell you what. I will go to Mexico and start firing Katyushas at Texas. Let's see what the US reaction is? Do you think you would just close the borders and just stop fighting. In fact, the only way they hit ANYTHING is sheer luck No, if you fire rockets at a big city like Haifa you will hit something and cause a lot of damage. There is a huge amount of damage in Israel. 6 civilians were killed by Hezbollah rockets today. and went house to house are next to nil. This is exactly what Hezbollah wants. They have spent the last 6 years preparing the ground to ambush ground troops. Why should Israel fight Hezbollah's war? Edited by bluke Aug. 3, 2006, 09:50:54 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #263,571 by boxley 8/3/06 9:52:12 AM Reply	katushas from Mexico? The only people they are going to kill are hispanics and the occasional tourist. bad simile. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,572 by bepatient 8/3/06 9:54:34 AM Reply	Don't try to claim a moral high ground if you are not prepared to fight for it. They have spent the last 6 years preparing the ground to ambush ground troops. Why should Israel fight Hezbollah's war? So now they are an enemy preparing a front??? I thought they were a cowardly terrorist org. The reason you would fight that war is because it would PROVE that you were interested in minimizing civilian casualties in Lebanon. Your people are NOT at great risk. Your property is being damaged, your people for the most part are not. Risking your military to spare THEIR lives would tell a much better story to the muslim community, would it not? Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,578 by bluke 8/3/06 10:02:38 AM Reply	No one including the US ... throws away troops for no reason. To send in ground troops without air attacks would be suicide. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that has spent the last 6 years preparing for a confrontation with Israel. A large part of that preparation has been to bury much of their infrastructure in civilian areas and prepare ambushes and traps in civilian houses.
Post #263,593 by drewk 8/3/06 10:48:19 AM Reply	This will be my last reply on this Bill said: The reason you would fight that war is because it would PROVE that you were interested in minimizing civilian casualties in Lebanon. Your response was: No one including the US throws away troops for no reason. By your own words, minimizing civilian (Lebanese) casualties is "no reason". As I said before: Israel has so far demonstrated that they don't care about civilians, they care about Israelis. There are things civilized people don't do, even in self defense. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #263,606 by bluke 8/3/06 11:23:22 AM Reply	You are being pedantic No one throws troops into a fight where they know they will be ambushed and killed if they have a choice.
Post #263,608 by bluke 8/3/06 11:25:29 AM Reply	Modern war is always a balance between civilian casualties and the fighting, that is a fact of life. No country is obligated to throw troops into a trap to save civilians who are in fact helping the enemy.
Post #263,638 by Simon_Jester 8/3/06 1:55:41 PM Reply	So, why do a ground war at all? No country is obligated to throw troops into a trap to save civilians who are in fact helping the enemy. why not simply bomb (nuke?) the country flat?
Post #263,644 by bluke 8/3/06 2:24:20 PM Reply	Re: So, why do a ground war at all? Because no war has ever been won from the air. The air attacks weakened Hezbollah and made the conditions for a ground war against Hezbollah more favorable.
Post #263,645 by boxley 8/3/06 2:29:11 PM Reply	took 48 hrs to get to beirut in 82, whats wrong here? would have been better to blow by everything then pickup the trash on the way out. Would have been almost over by now. The tactics are looking pretty wishy washy from this viewpoint. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,577 by Simon_Jester 8/3/06 10:01:35 AM Reply	If the US response... I will tell you what. I will go to Mexico and start firing Katyushas at Texas. Let's see what the US reaction is? Do you think you would just close the borders and just stop fighting. If the US response to missiles being fired at it is to target airports and civilians, they would be blasted for it (and I would be working actively against the US at that point). If the US military however, rolled into Mexico with tanks and air support in a massive movement, I would support it wholeheartedly (as I suspect most Americans would).
Post #263,580 by bluke 8/3/06 10:04:44 AM Reply	That is exactly what Israel is doing now What if the airport was being used to resupply the enemy with katyushas? How many Iraqi civilians have been killed by US forces in Iraq? A heck of a lot more then Israel has killed in Lebanon.
Post #263,582 by Simon_Jester 8/3/06 10:10:41 AM Reply	Air support != air attack and taking an airport (and holding it) is different that bombing it. And...for you information, I do *NOT* support my country's attacking of civilians. Although our marines are about to be blasted for killing civilians, I personally hold their leadership responsible for those actions. There's a difference between targetting civilians and invading. Your ground troops should've been in Lebanon a while ago.
Post #263,583 by bluke 8/3/06 10:13:43 AM Reply	What kind of air support can you give ... against people hiding in a civilian building? What about bombing rocket launchers? command posts? Do you really think Israel should have tried to capture Beirut airport? Do you think that is feasible?
Post #263,636 by Simon_Jester 8/3/06 1:51:59 PM Reply	Probably not.... I mean the US moved in on Grenada with overwhelming force, taking the airport and other items and getting their civilians out. I don't think Israel has the manpower, experience or will to do anything similar to take over a mere airport.
Post #263,588 by bepatient 8/3/06 10:28:45 AM Reply	A huge what-if that Israel NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED to prove. Instead, it disabled the airport and kept innocent civilians and foreign nationals from escaping safely. Lebanon is a vacation spot...and it is regional holidays. Thousands of foreign nationals were trapped by this action...with NO PROOF of resupply by air. Add insult...it then bombed the main highway out of the country every night...making escape that way potential sucicide as well. This was, at the time, justified as "keeping the enemy contained"...an enemy you know say is entrenched for 6 years and not leaving. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,590 by bluke 8/3/06 10:31:38 AM Reply	How do you think the katyushas got to Lebanon? Last I checked Hezbollah didn't make them.
Post #263,600 by bepatient 8/3/06 11:10:31 AM Reply	Last time anyone checked...and your own admission they are already there, have been for years...hidden in civilian homes. No proof was ever offered that the supply lines are current...and that there is an active resupply program in place...ESPECIALLY an active resupply program using a civilian airport. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,605 by bluke 8/3/06 11:22:00 AM Reply	Don't be ridiculous You think that at some point they said we have enough missiles? Do you think that once the war started they wouldn't want to be resupplied? What other airport would you have them use?
Post #263,620 by bepatient 8/3/06 11:45:08 AM Reply	Prove it. You can't. Your government can't. Tracking flights from Iran to Beirut, or from Syria to Beirut is SIMPLE. There is no evidence that this is how they arrived. Your assertion of me being "ridiculous" nothwithstanding. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,631 by bluke 8/3/06 1:07:25 PM Reply	Why did Israel bomb the Beirut airport [link\|http://dailynightly.msnbc.com/2006/07/why_did_israel_.html\|Why did Israel bomb the Beirut airport] Analysts say there are two possible reasons and they are not mutually exclusive. Israel wants to keep Iranian arms from getting in and Israeli captives from being flown out. Beirut Airport has long been key to Iran's supply of all kinds of material to Hezbollah. Iran's Revolutionary Guard has supplied Hezbollah with more than $1 billion of supplies over the past 25 years, say U.S. intelligence officials, as much as $150 million a year during tense times. The majority of it is flown in on an Iranian 747 cargo jet that unloads at Beirut Airport, where Hezbollah agents pick it up and drive it to the Bekkah valley south of the Lebanese capital. Anti-aircraft batteries, Katyusha rockets, armored vehicles, small arms, anti-tank missiles, etc. have all been sent. Beirut is the only airport in Lebanon capable of handling that 747. The initial deployment was in 1982 with planes bringing in supplies as needed. By the 1990s the flights had fallen to a quarterly routine. With Hezbollah under fire in Israel, now would be a time to resupply. [link\|http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060723/31rockets.htm\|Hell From the Heavens] At dawn on January 31 this year, Lebanese Army troops stopped a suspicious convoy of 12 trucks trying to cross the border from Syria. Inside, they found tons of unauthorized ammunition, rockets, and other weapons. The convoy's final destination: the arms caches of Hezbollah, the radical Islamic political movement whose militia controls wide swaths of southern and eastern Lebanon. A series of phone calls followed, reportedly reaching the Lebanese prime minister's office, until, finally, the convoy was allowed on its way. The incident was but a glimpse of a vast supply train running from Iranian arms factories and Syrian warehouses to Hezbollah, whose burgeoning arsenal has prompted Israel's offensive into Lebanon this month.
Post #263,633 by bepatient 8/3/06 1:19:56 PM Reply	Interesting. You give a link that 1) identifies THE SPECIFIC PLANE...and then offer another link that shows the resupply IS BY GROUND!!! And my point is...IF RESUPPLY IS BY AIR IT WOULD BE EASY TO DETERMINE...which is obviously the case since they already know it is an Iranian 747. Not exactly hard to pick that out of a crowd...and not exactly something that radar wouldn't see. And no reason to bomb the airport. You know its an iranian 747...shoot it down. Or, send in a tactical squad when you see the plane land...blow it up with PROOF that its there and carrying arms. Both better solutions that would WIN support for Israel, not lose it. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,639 by bluke 8/3/06 1:59:35 PM 8/3/06 2:13:14 PM Reply	Your amazing, everthing is so easy In real life these things are not so easy. Do you know where Beirut airport is in relation to the border? How many people are guarding the airport? Yeah it sounds easy send in a tactical team, but it is not. How do you ensure that they get out? Remeber his was on the first day of the fighting. I can just imagine what people like you would have said if Israel had shot down an Iranian airliner besides the fact that it might have set off a regional war. But, who cares about all that, the armchair general here has declared that it is easy so he must be right. After all, it worked in Rambo, or some other war movie. Unfortunately real war is not like a movie and is not so simple. Edited by bluke Aug. 3, 2006, 02:06:06 PM EDT Edited by bluke Aug. 3, 2006, 02:13:14 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #263,660 by bepatient 8/3/06 4:48:54 PM Reply	Yes. 50 miles from the border over open water to an airport with the main runway that sits in the ocean. Very well within range of the helicopter gunships that we sold you. Did I say it would have been EASIER than bombing. No. However, as far as targets go, Beirut Airport is pretty painless. And again, it was attacked, over and over again, based on an assertion with no proof. It would have been better to send gunships and get proof. Israeli firepower could easily handle ground defense of the airport (if it is what they claim it to be). As for armchair generaling...you are doing a fine job of this also...passing on the party line in justification of targeting civilians. Does this criticism of Israeli tactics in any way endorse Hezbollah? No. They are equally culpable of targetting civilians. But we have always been told that Israel was above this. It does not currently seem to be the case...and there seems to be no interest in demonstrating anything different. Well, shooting down a cargo plane that is carrying arms into a conflict zone isn't likely to be thought of poorly. If its known enough to be published...its known enough to be acted upon. Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry._{Adrian Belew}
Post #263,742 by Another Scott 8/4/06 7:50:06 AM Reply	On the other hand... [link\|http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asaKdKEgFBC8&refer=worldwide_news\|Bloomberg]: Aug. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Many of the rockets Hezbollah is firing into Israel are made in Iran, demonstrating the Islamic republic's success in copying Chinese and Russian technology to build its own weapons industry. The Shiite Muslim group's arsenal includes Iranian-built portable Katyusha rockets, Israeli Reserve Brigadier General Yossi Kuperwasser said. Hezbollah struck an Israeli ship on July 14 with an Iranian-made C802 Noor guided missile. The militia also has Iran's Zelzal rocket, with a range of 120 miles, enough to reach Tel Aviv from south Lebanon, said Yaakov Amidror, a retired major general who ran Israel's National Defense College. [...] To supply Hezbollah, Iran flies arms to Syria, where they're loaded on trucks and shipped into Lebanon under Syrian supervision, said Yiftah Shapir, editor of the ``Middle East Military Balance,'' an annual survey published by Tel Aviv University's Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies. [...] The Zelzal, which means ``earthquake'' in Arabic, contains a 600-kilogram (1,322-pound) warhead, said Doug Richardson, editor of Jane's Missiles and Rockets, published in Coulsdon, England. That compares with the 90- and 175-kilogram warheads on the shorter-range Fajr-3 and Fajr-5, which Hezbollah also has, Richardson said. The Fajr-5 is based on China's WS-1, according to a Web site run by the Federation of American Scientists. [...] Hezbollah funds itself with direct transfers from Iran, and by creating front companies for currency counterfeiting, cigarette smuggling and other illegal activities, according to U.S. Treasury and State Department officials. Iran's subsidy to Hezbollah is about $300 million a year, with $100 million for social programs such as schools and the rest for military purposes, said Ariel Cohen, a senior fellow at the Washington-based Heritage Foundation. [...] Another large part of Hezbollah's funding comes from Latin America, said Rachel Ehrenfeld, author of ``Funding Evil: How Terrorism is Financed and How to Stop It'' (Bonus Books, 2003). Hezbollah is involved in drug trafficking through an agreement with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia and makes counterfeit goods, including DVDs, in the ``tri-border area,'' where Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina meet, she said. Neither Hezbollah nor the Palestinian group Hamas would be able to launch missiles, train people or provide ``the so-called social security to buy the loyalty of the population if they didn't have money,'' said Ehrenfeld, who is also director of the New York-based American Center for Democracy, a non-profit group. ``If we were able to stop that money, this wouldn't happen.'' [...] A 220-millimeter rocket that ripped through the roof of a Haifa rail yard July 16 and killed eight workers was Syrian-made, according Israel's bomb disposal unit. Syria's ambassador to the U.K., Sami Khiyami, said his country isn't supplying arms to Hezbollah. ``The only thing Syria is doing, it is telling the international community we have a constructive role to play but the aggression has to stop,'' he said. [...] Emphasis added. Why was the airport bombed again? :-/ Hmm. 120 miles. That means that Hezbollah would need to be driven out of a swath from the border to [link\|https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html\|Batro\ufffdn] or so. I hope you guys are understanding what you're in for.... :-( Cheers, Scott. (Who hopes the UN gets off its butt and does something soon, but isn't optimistic about that.)

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