Post #263,217
7/31/06 3:21:17 PM
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How about this?
[link|http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html|http://eureferendum....7/milking-it.html]
he Lebanese \ufffdrescue worker\ufffd we see in many of these photos parades around with a dead child for four hours, even changing his clothes and continuing the exhibition.
Does that sound like it is real or staged?
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Post #263,220
7/31/06 3:30:02 PM
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kid is still dead
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #263,223
7/31/06 3:48:05 PM
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Well, then, let's just look at the numbers
They, after all, don't carry emotional overtones like pictures of dead children do.
Est. dead Lebanese: 750 (600+ confirmed).
Dead Israelis: 52 (some of which are actually soldiers in Lebanon).
They're improving: in the early going, Israel was only getting a 10:1 kill ratio.
Along the way, you've managed to out-Bush Bush; a lot of people that were either indifferent or even sympathetic have changed their minds in the last three weeks.
[link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060729.MIDREVOLUTION29/TPStory/International|http://www.theglobea...ory/International]
Boxley was asking about the veracity of Canadian newspapers, while quoting quoting a website owned by the Asper family, who also own many TV stations and newspapers, such as the National Post. However, the article he was linking to was actually written for the paper linked above; Lewis Mackenzie is a regular contributor to the G&M Op-Ed pages.
The newspaper above was owned by Ken Thomsen (until his death earlier this year) and is one of the most respected papers in the country; the editorial pages have consistently sided with Israel's right to defend itself and has pointed out on a number of occasions Hezbollah's obvious deficiencies (which are legion).
Do you think the columnist is trying to spin an anti-Israeli perspective there?
The thing is, right now Israel is being most successful at creating enemies where they didn't exist before. In the past, the Maronites, Sunnis, and Druze didn't particularly like nor trust Hezbollah, and wanted to see them finished as a military force. Now that Israel has shown how unable the new democratic government is at protecting the people there from the depredations of its neighbours (and both Israel and Syria have long and nasty histories doing just that), they are looking at other agencies.
Good going; instead of trying to reach out and help the moderate democratic forces in Lebanon, Israel and the US have turned them into enemies. Makes you wonder if W is telling the truth when he says he's trying to help democracy in that part of the world. As for my own PM, I'm disgusted.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #263,273
8/1/06 6:21:06 AM
8/1/06 6:54:43 AM
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Re: Well, then, let's just look at the numbers
The numbers prove that Israel cares about civilians and therefore every building in Israel has a bomb shelter and every apartment built since 1991 has a secure room. Israelis aren't getting killed because they are sitting in bomb shelters. hezbollah on the other hand is interested in civilian casualties and hides and fires weapons from civilian areas:
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html?pagewanted=2|http://www.nytimes.c...html?pagewanted=2]
A day after criticizing Israel for \ufffddisproportionate*\ufffd strikes against civilians, Mr. Egeland accused Hezbollah of \ufffdcowardly blending\ufffd among women and children.
\ufffdI heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this,\ufffd he said. \ufffdI don\ufffdt think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.\ufffd
Tell me, how many American civilians were killed in WWII vs. German or Japanese civilians? A lot more the 10:1. Do the numbers tell the story about WWII?
Edited by bluke
Aug. 1, 2006, 06:54:43 AM EDT
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Post #263,284
8/1/06 9:51:05 AM
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Nit
The numbers prove that Israel cares about civilians and therefore every building in Israel has a bomb shelter and every apartment built since 1991 has a secure room. No, that proves Israel cares about Israelis. I know that based on this you're going to think I'm in favor of exterminating all Jews, and I can't stop you from choosing to think that. But there something you should remember, even if only for the sake of tactics: You have a lot more credibility if you can admit when your opponent has a point. Yes, Hezbollah is hiding among women and children. Yes, they want Israel to be seen killing women and children. But yes, Israel is killing women and children. Say all you want to that they don't want to. So that they have no better alternative. Say it's unintended collateral damage when taking out legitimate military targets. All of that will be true. But it will still be true that Israel has killed hundreds of civilians. Is it impossible for you to feel sorrow at that? ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
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Post #263,306
8/1/06 11:32:51 AM
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Indeed.
Bluke needs to take a deep breath and look at things like [link|http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2006/08/the_qana_tipping_point.html|this] collection of published opinions from around the world. E.g.: Israel's current strategy, if it does not change, will create new enemies, says Anthony Cordesman, military analyst for the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, a conservative think tank.
Israel, he says, entered the war "on [link|http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_progj/task,view/id,724/|deeply flawed] grand strategic and tactical principles, and seems to have fought the ideological and political dimension on the basis of the perceptions of Israelis and Americans. The IAF and IDF have so far been clumsy in both air and artillery operations, and sought tactical advantage at serious risk of excessive civilian casualties and collateral damage. Military cultures do not change in mid-operation and the incredibly clumsy IDF and Israeli government response to Qana is a case in point. Israel will, however, have to learn in the future if it does not want to take a largely passive region and turn it into an active enemy."
Hezbollah has already won a political victory, says Haaretz's Akiva Eldar.
"Irrespective of when the war in the north ends, it already has claimed [link|http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744440.html|a place of honor] in Arab victory albums, along with the Egyptian 'victory' in 1973. The political leadership is beginning to grasp that even if we manage to send Hassan Nasrallah on the journey taken by Ahmed Yassin, Hezbollah (the Party of Allah), like Hamas, will not disappear from this world. Moreover, according to the plan Condoleezza Rice is carrying around, Hezbollah is expected to exit this war having extricated the Lebanese prisoners and the Shaba Farms from Israel, and still get to keep some of its arsenal." The IDF and the Israeli government need to remember that war is politics by other means. Keep your eye on what you want to achieve politically and don't assume that military action will achieve your goals. It's a tool - not the end in itself. The goal should be to achieve a political solution, not to disarm or crush or substantially weaken Hezbollah or humiliate Nasrallah. If Israel doesn't understand that soon, they, and the world, are in for even more pain. [link|http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060801/D8J7JKB80.html|Pushing deeper into Lebanon] is just going to make things worse, IMO. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #263,304
8/1/06 11:17:45 AM
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You're seriously comparing this to WWII?
Tell me, how many American civilians were killed in WWII vs. German or Japanese civilians? A lot more the 10:1. Do the numbers tell the story about WWII? <Shaking head> So, is Israel firebombing dresden? Or dropping nukes on Japan? How about Pearl Harbor? Or the invasion of Poland? or France? You sure you want to make this comparison?
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Post #263,311
8/1/06 11:59:49 AM
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Well, sure!
You remember how Britain was dispirited and surrendered following the nightly Nazi bombing raids on London?
Oh wait, that was in a parallel universe.
Alex
When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
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Post #263,315
8/1/06 12:23:23 PM
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snicker
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #263,317
8/1/06 12:27:19 PM
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It's worked swimmingly in Grozny, too. 23 kB .img
[image|http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/29/Grozny_war.jpg/300px-Grozny_war.jpg|0|Russian troops in Grozny, February 2000|220|300]
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #263,383
8/2/06 6:09:53 AM
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I don't understand your point
The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and killed some 2400 US sailors, what was the US reaction? Was the reaction proportional?
Along those lines was the firebombing of Dresden a war crime? How about Hiroshima? How about the raids on Tokyo?
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Post #263,396
8/2/06 9:52:38 AM
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I know...
and I don't really expect you to. You're hung up on a protect Israel at all costs mindset and have forgotten history.
You ignore the fact that lots of people have considered (and accused) the US of war crimes for both Dresden and Hiroshima. You've also forgotten the fact that both Hiroshima and Dresden were acts against countries that were fully at war. Germany had invaded both Poland, France and a lot of other countries. Japan landed (and taken) islands in Alaska (and taken American civilians as POWs).
<Shrug>
I've already agreed with you that Israel needs to defend itself.
You know that I'm not a fan of Israel (I not a fan of any country that attacks us).
You know that both Saudia Arabia and others are also supporting Israels actions.
Just a thought: when your enemies are supporting your actions - perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your actions....maybe your helping them.
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Post #263,312
8/1/06 12:01:18 PM
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If we're going to go down that road...
...then neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever lost 20,000 troops in a single day.
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme_%281916%29|http://en.wikipedia...._Somme_%281916%29]
Neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever had 25,000 people killed in a single air raid.
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II|http://en.wikipedia....n_in_World_War_II]
Neither Israel nor Hezbollah ever expended a million troops to hold a city.
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad|http://en.wikipedia....tle_of_Stalingrad]
Every single death is a real human tragedy in this pissy, crappy little war.
But don't start pretending that it's anything other than a pissy, crappy little war.
And when you've won (or lost), what exactly is it you've won (or lost)?
A few square miles of fuck-all, that's what.
Idiots, the lot of you.
Peter
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Post #263,345
8/1/06 2:10:19 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #263344 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=263344|ICLRPD]
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
— Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
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