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New Taxonomy, thy name is Confusion!
Some here know I've been dealing with fish lately. Fish for breakfast, fish for lunch, fish for supper, and more fish. Slippery slimey scaly fish (I try to avoid the smelly ones).

There's two good things about buying your fish whole (the bad things are called "scaling", "gutting" and "boning") - you can make some judgement how fresh it is, and you have a ghost of a chance of identifying what it actually is you bought.

Scientific taxonomy is bad enough. Take "Yellow Croaker". There's two fish sold in Southern California as "Yellow Croaker". There are at least two scienteriffic names for fish called "Yellow Croaker" except Fishbase says they both point to the same fish - but their photos are so bad I'm not sure even which one they're talking about.

Other authorities are specific about two fish but are not specific about which is which, or even if they know. It's common for markets to display the two side by side calling one "Yellowfish" and the other "Yellow Croaker" or some other variation. I prefer the convention of calling one "Yellow Croaker" and the other "Yellow Corvina" (Spanish for croaker) and that ID seems to hold up better than others, at least around here.

It's also wonderful to check the photos on Fishbase (29,300 fish described) and find they have five photos for a particular fish - one of which looks exactly like the fish in my hand and the other four look like something else entierely - and EVERY photo is captioned "Identification to be verified (ongoing)". What the hell are we paying these scientist folk for, anyway?

Yeah, yeah, I know - it's a tough job, and every scientist is clawing at every other scientist's throat over minor details of interpretaion. Yeah, I know they're underpaid, but how much should we pay them for having fun anyway?

So lets go on to commercial taxonomy. Here we leave academic bickering and enter two realms: deliberate deception and wild guessing.

Now to the wild gussing front. Last week I bought a large fish (over 5 pounds) labeled "Sheephead' with a subscript "Bacoco". Now identifying this critter shouldn't be rocket science, because Fishbase lists only a dozen fish called "Sheephead" and just three called "Bacoco".

Alas, it was clearly none of either and every feature screamed "Croaker", but this fish was big. If I didn't know that drums and croakers are the same thing I'd never have found it was a "freshwater drum".

And then there's pomfrets. Yes, there really are pomfrets but silver pomfrets are actualy butterfish and black pomfrets are actually pompanos and no real pomfrets are to be found at all.

So Saturday I saw a bunch of fish labeled "Spanish Mackerel" and bought some. Got them home and looked at them carefully. There's at least a half dozen fish called Spanish mackerel, but you'd expect at least a fish so labled would be a mackerel - and this was clearly a scad.

OK, it was a "mackerel scad" because it's a scad that looks a lot like a mackerel but it's not a mackerel and it's not Spanish, it's related to jacks and pompanos (some of which are called pomfrets even though they aren't).

By the way, in the larger sizes (10 to 12 inches), pan dressed and deep fried in olive oil mackerel scad is veeeery good eating - beats out most mackerel.

So on to actual deception.

How about "Chilean Sea Bass". It's a "made up out of thin air" name for a bland deep water fish properly labeled "Patagonian Toothfish". The name was made up by a California fish distributor desperate to sell a small mountain of toothfish he'd bought. Finally, when the supply of another bland fish was interrupted he made a sale. Now the Japanese will pay over 1,000 US$ cold cash for any toothfish they can get, supporting a fleet of pirate fishing boats and sending the toothfish to the extinction watch list.

Or this years darling of the chef set, the "Black Cod". This ugly limp floppy thing is properly known as "sablefish" (completely unrelated to actual cod) but nobody was able to sell one under that name. Now the menu price has just crossed the orbit of Neptune outbound.

But lets try some real deception. In upscale cookbooks you'll find recipes requiring "Dover Sole" (Fishbase "Common Sole"). This is also called "European sole" but it's really pretty worldwide - except for the Pacific coast of North, Central and South America.

On the West Coast we have a flatfish marketed as "Dover Sole" (Fishbase "Dover Sole") the real name of which is "Slime Fish" and it's primary use is mink food on fur farms. It's secondary use is for sale to unsuspecting gourmets as "Dover Sole" - and heaven help anyone who's using a "slime fish" in a recipe calling for "common sole".

Or how about "China Sole"? It's a made up name for Vietnamese catfish for markets that think they don't like catfish. In markets that do like catfish it's called "catfish" without any suggestion it isn't American channel cat. But there's a double deception here. In Asian markets it's sold as "Basa" but it's actually "Tra". Basa is the preferred catfish in Vietnam, but Americans (even of Vietnamese descent) either don't know the difference or don't care, so the faster growing Tra is shipped out labeled "Basa", but that's an improvement over "China Sole" (which doesn't grow in China anyway).

OK, I could go on for another 6 or 7 yards of text wihout having to pause to think, but Scott says we're "bandwidth limited" now so I'll call it a night.

Next week, "Jumbo Shrimp". What's a shrimp and what's a prawn - nobody knows.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus July 24, 2006, 12:24:51 AM EDT
New :-) Where's Linnaeus when you need him?
Of course, maybe it's to be [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linnaeus|expected]:

The name of this botanist comes in different variants: 'Carl Linnaeus', 'Carolus Linnaeus' and 'Carl von Linn\ufffd', sometimes just 'Carl Linn\ufffd'. There is often confusion about his real Swedish name, as opposed to the Latinized form 'Carolus Linnaeus' he used most when he published his scientific works in Latin.


Maybe they should just have an ISFN (ala ISBN) instead. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Yeah, that's just what we needed . . .
. . a father of taxonomy who couldn't keep his own name straight.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New its not a sablefish its a ling cod unless its in freshwater
then its a burbot. Thats not a sole but a flounder.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Black Cod = Sablefish is not a Lingcod
Sablefish is family Anoploponatidae, Lingcod is family Hexagrammidae - not related.

European Dover Sole (Common Sole) is a sole, West Coast Dover Sole is a flounder. Rex Sole and Petrale Sole are also West Coast flounders but they're good eating and Petrale can stand in for European sole just fine.

In Europe flounders are called flounders and sole are called sole but in North America any flounder on the menu is called a sole because that sounds classy and European.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New That's a shame
... in North America any flounder on the menu is called a sole because that sounds classy and European.
I grew up liking flounder. I haven't seen it on a menu in probably a decade or more.



While reading that thoroughly hilarious rant, I wondered just how much confusion comes from three (I'm presuming) facts:
  1. We still don't know 80% of the shit that's down there.
  2. There's so much variety that no one person is able to identify more than half of what might be found in any commercial fishing range.
  3. For all we know, fish species are able to cross-breed much more than is common among mammals, and there may not be such clear distinctions between breeds.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I'm not sure that cross breeding is much of a factor . . .
. . but the others definitely are.

There are so many fish and so little knowledge about them variations within a species aren't even being considered yet.

Some fish can appear quite different depending on their age which adds more confusion.

Then there's communication problem with marine biologists (which the Internet is starting to fix to some extent). For instance the Pacific and Atlantic species of Crevalle Jack are probably minor variations of the same species (the Atlantic one grows a bit bigger). There are lots of fish with two, three, four or even more "official scientific names".

Biologists can't agree even on fairly major issues. For instance some divide Pacific Rockfish into two orders and some say they're all scorpionfish and don't recognize the naming conventions of the other camp.

Reclassification and renaming is continuous as well. Even so well known a species as the Rainbow Trout (known as Steelhead in it's seagoing form) was recently reclassified from being an Atlantic salmon to being a Pacific trout.

And, of course, the persistent problem of local names being used for different fish in different areas and the same fish being called different names in different areas. For it's 29,300 species of fish Fishbase lists 217,200 Common names.

Pile on top of this deliberately misleading marketing names and you have something approximating chaos.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New *boggle*
Even so well known a species as the Rainbow Trout (known as Steelhead in it's seagoing form) was recently reclassified from being an Atlantic salmon to being a Pacific trout.
Excuse my naivete, but isn't that a fairly significant difference? Does this now mean that all that trout my grandfather caught -- my father ate so much as a child that to this day he gets nauseous when he smells fish -- I was actually eating salmon? (Except that now I wasn't. [WTF is the appropriate tense for that sentence?])
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New s /wasn't/wouldn't have been/ maybe?
You probably need some sort of [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive|subjunctive] there.

Maybe. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Not a problem.
They're all family Salmonidae. Should a rainbow trout chose to go to sea and become a steelhead (some do, some don't), the only difference is that s/he can swim back up-river and spawn without dying. If you have near 100% fatality at spawning you're a salmon, if you have a decent chance of surviving it you're a trout.

As with everything else relating to fish there's some confusion - a few Atlantic salmon survive spawning. "You've spawned and are now heading down-river? Sorry guy, I've got to revoke your salmon license and issue you a provisional trout license".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus July 24, 2006, 01:21:15 PM EDT
New Nitty gritty time
Would the salmon I'd find at the grocery store today taste like the stream-caught[1] rainbow trout I ate as a kid? Are the salmon steaks larger simply because, like goldfish, they grew to fill a larger habitat?


[1] Yes, they stocked the stream, so it was probably farmed fish. I doubt it ever spawned in the wild.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Salmon / trout
I suspect a salmon that hasn't yet been to sea will be pretty much like a trout in all respects, and will not be red. I may be able to confirm this since my local fish market has "baby salmon" right now, which look like oversize trout, but I'll have to figure out if it really is a salmon.

Salmon picks up its unique flavor and red color (which has nothing to do with quality or flavor) by eating crustaceans in the oceans.

The same goes for rainbow trout that choose to become steelhead, they also pick up the red coloring and a different flavor during their saltwater adventure.

Yes, salmon are larger because of their larger environment. Same with steelhead which get much larger than they would have as rainbow trout.

Store bought salmon would not taste the same as the trout of your youth. Farm raised salmon is raised in ocean water (and has the same dye wild salmon collect added to their food for color). Most farm raised salmon is Atlantic salmon even when grown on the Pacific coast because Atlantic salmon tolerate crowding better.

Wild salmon has better flavor and texture than farmed salmon but at several times the price. There isn't nearly enough of it to meet the demand for salmon.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Cool, just like flamingos
They're pink because they eat shrimp. Dying the food is a cheap hack, but not really surprising I guess.

So other than "not the same", how would you compare the taste of salmon vs. trout? I remember the stuff I ate as a kid being OK, but have since decided/realized that mom was not the world's best cook. It's entirely possible I'd really like it if done well.

I haven't particularly liked the salmon I've had as an adult. But the two or three times I've tried it were either at a buffet -- an environment not noted for great seafood -- or grilled by someone who might not have had that much experience with it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Good salmon is to die for.
We get a lot of it in Seattle, and I just outright avoid the farmed stuff because it is so obviously inferior in flavor (not to mention having all kinds of toxins in it, and being horribly environmentally damaging) it's just not worth it to me.

I couldn't give you a good recipe, but there are a ton out there.
Hurt me if you must, but let the duckie go!
New Especially for the salmon...
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Salmon is a very intensely flavored fish.
Salmon's strong flavor and oiliness makes it suitable for grilling and broiling combined with fairly strong seasonings and sauces, though you have to be careful or it'll get dry. Even poached it's quite strong in flavor.

While definitely not bland, trout doesn't have that overbearing salmony flavor and is a more suitable fish for subtle and refined sauces and treatments. With a very long body cavity trout is a favorite for stuffing and has just enough flavor of it's own to complement mushrooms, sausage and other stuffings.

I like salmon now and then but more as an accent than as a feature. Actually, I like salmon best raw, sliced thin and draped over a lump of seasoned rice. Full speed ahead [link|http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/seafish.html#worm|and damn the worms]!
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New As an accent, not a feature ... sounds good
It was, as you said, overbearing.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New get thee to your local walmart supercenter
they might have some Alaskan salmon. Here we are paying $4.29 a lb and we buy whole filets (feeds 3 cost $13.00) Its packed by Icicle Seafoods out of Seward. Should be able to get it for about 1 more month
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Re: Nitty gritty time - in many more ways than One
Dunno about the taste buds' take - but last I heard (in some detail) - the cubic-closest-packing of farmed any-fish -- produces a diseased fish / or somewhat 'mutated', in any event. It would be wishful to imagine that taste wouldn't alter, along with the rest of its biochem.

IIRC.. the red color of er, free-ranging salmon is merely the visual cue of the necessity of this spcies feeding across a variety of natural critters. (The farmed stuff has red dye added - read label. If they supply one.) The crowding effect on disease transmission odds was likened to the difference of

One person with a cold, in a room you visit for several minutes VS
same snuffler in an elevator, stopped between floors, for hours

(a simile for those who don't do stats, I guess.)

Overall effect of listening to many biologists in recent years; then this summary of a couple hours, with significant data: I've eschewed farm-raised salmon for some time; that meant le$$-salmon for moi :-/ (which I happen to love, not merely for its bitchin source of decent-grade Omega-3s to balance out all those 6s n'such.)

Most every story about Our Model of entrepreneurial exploitation demonstrates a similar degree of utter cluelessness (but mostly: could-care-Less-ness) - none surprises, any more. We have yet to learn to think properly, of Scale. 'Wise' has no relationship whatsoever to, CIEIO-dom's vision of Success.

Amidst the religio-warz, who has time to think of paramecia?
(Or ponder how the antibiotics used to control the diseases-of-confinement.. and fish-farmers are using lots of those, too - join the chem-factory beef, and other Wonders of Pharmchem + Capitalism: inside our cells.)

Then there are the dioxins produced increasingly/alarmingly in farmed-fish
(as soon may be extended to way-off-coast 'farms': with ~huge nets for containment.)
As we finish off the oceans, intensely. Too. There's a whole sub-category about the "junk-fish" used for pets and.. as diet of the wretched who outnumber US: the nutritional qualities are falling there, too.

We can always hope that we won't ever need an antibiotic to work, on millions - for the next 1918 flu. Maybe if we've been very very Good for a few generations..?
Tuna? Hydrargyrum.. ain't that a euphonious name? You don't feed tuna-mixes to your cat, now! who needs radioactive isotopes when plain bloody chemistry does the job?

Jeez, let's not even Think about the chickens..

We're Sick.
Stay rich and you can select-out the edible stuff, for a time..
But Gaia as MD-in-Charge, just may not have old copies of Better 4000' Starter Homes and Gardens in Her waiting room..




Ashleigh Brilliant, as usual pegs the species and its planning -
In the final analysis everything depends on everything else
(But it's so much Trouble to think that hard. Let's just market, instead.)
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #262525 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=262525|ICLRPD]
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Perhaps you should visit Boston and get scrod! :)
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New Underage cod are not on my list of perversions to do . . .
. . right now. Besides, everyone I've met who was from Boston said they'd never go back. "Everyone is so polite in Los Angeles" tells it all, doesn't it?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Polite? Sure. Sincere? Never.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New MMMM! Boston Scrod!
A must-have every time I go home to Indiana. There's a restaurant called Clarksville Seafood that prepares it lightly breaded and fried accompanied with the best thin onion rings you ever et!
[link|http://www.iglou.com/restaurants/clark.shtml|Review]
Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]
     Taxonomy, thy name is Confusion! - (Andrew Grygus) - (23)
         :-) Where's Linnaeus when you need him? - (Another Scott) - (1)
             Yeah, that's just what we needed . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
         its not a sablefish its a ling cod unless its in freshwater - (boxley) - (16)
             Black Cod = Sablefish is not a Lingcod - (Andrew Grygus) - (15)
                 That's a shame - (drewk) - (14)
                     I'm not sure that cross breeding is much of a factor . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (13)
                         *boggle* - (drewk) - (11)
                             s /wasn't/wouldn't have been/ maybe? - (Another Scott)
                             Not a problem. - (Andrew Grygus) - (9)
                                 Nitty gritty time - (drewk) - (8)
                                     Salmon / trout - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                                         Cool, just like flamingos - (drewk) - (5)
                                             Good salmon is to die for. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                 Especially for the salmon... -NT - (admin)
                                             Salmon is a very intensely flavored fish. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                                                 As an accent, not a feature ... sounds good - (drewk)
                                             get thee to your local walmart supercenter - (boxley)
                                     Re: Nitty gritty time - in many more ways than One - (Ashton)
                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (drewk)
         Perhaps you should visit Boston and get scrod! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (3)
             Underage cod are not on my list of perversions to do . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                 Polite? Sure. Sincere? Never. -NT - (drewk)
             MMMM! Boston Scrod! - (imqwerky)

Not all biopsies come back bad. But all autopsies do.
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