Ken Lay, Enron founder, dead.

Post #260,752 by bepatient 7/5/06 10:44:42 AM Reply	Ken Lay, Enron founder, dead. Massive coronary [link\|http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou060705_mh_laybio.29d73d64.html\|http://www.khou.com/...bio.29d73d64.html] If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,755 by drewk 7/5/06 11:20:52 AM Reply	I must have my tinfoil beanie on too tight 'Cause the first thing I thought was, "How convenient for all the people who'd rather not see a precedent set for executives serving real time." === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,757 by Simon_Jester 7/5/06 11:30:43 AM Reply	Not really.... Enron has lost people before (such as Clifford Baxter). It's possible it was the stress of the trial. Then again, there are certain poisons that are said to simulate heart attacks.
Post #260,759 by drewk 7/5/06 11:55:59 AM Reply	Or maybe your beanie is tuned to the same frequency as mine === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,760 by Simon_Jester 7/5/06 12:01:41 PM Reply	Nyah...we just saying its possible.... to get our beanies too tight we'd have to say that Clinton shot him. ;-)
Post #260,819 by broomberg 7/5/06 7:10:56 PM Reply	Mine was tighter "I want to see the body"
Post #260,822 by imqwerky 7/5/06 7:18:08 PM Reply	I agree He's faking his death and living in the Caymans now. Da Bastid! Smile, Amy [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman\|Pics of the Family]
Post #260,761 by lincoln 7/5/06 12:12:24 PM Reply	justice got cheated people needed to see him spend years behind bars so that they could get some "closure" for their losses in their 401(k)'s and their retirement dreams. Now, he's thumbing his nose at everyone from the Great Beyond. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #260,762 by bepatient 7/5/06 12:15:48 PM Reply	Sure, he got off lucky cause he's DEAD. ok. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,851 by lincoln 7/5/06 11:28:33 PM Reply	tell you what - go commit a serious crime, go to trial and get found guilty, then let's see if you're allowed to vacation out-of-state before your sentencing hearing. - go talk to any of the thousands that lost their jobs at Enron because Lay and Fastow LIED about the company's books. - go talk to any of the thousands that lost their jobs at Arthur Anderson because Lay and Fastow LIED about the company's books, with the help of the Anderson auditors. - go talk to any of the tens of thousands that saw their 401(K)'s shredded because they believed the bullshit that Fastow and Lay spewed, all while those two were raking in ten's of millions of dollars. Court evidence shows Lay grossed $70 million in Enron's last year alone. - now go talk to these people and ask them if they believe IF JUSTICE WAS SERVED. Please report back to me after you have done this. And in the meantime, you can go cry me a river. I'll believe that the bastard's really dead when I see him strung up like Mussolini. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #260,852 by bepatient 7/5/06 11:37:54 PM Reply	What---evah. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,862 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 9:31:01 AM Reply	you're going a bit hard-core....but there are better arguments in your favor. In dying, Kenneth Lay may be vacated of all charges.
Post #260,879 by bepatient 7/6/06 10:46:10 AM Reply	He was already convicted. Jury found him guilty. He avoided jail by death. The precedent of sr execs getting convicted has been set. What "inconveniently" didn't happen was the precedent of how long he would be sentenced for...which most expected would be the rest of his life. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,898 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 12:47:46 PM 7/6/06 12:56:47 PM Reply	It was on appeal.... since he died before the appeal was finished, the court can move to vacate the charges -- thus he was never charged. What he couldn't do in the courtroom, former Enron Chairman Ken Lay may finally be able to achieve in death \ufffd avoid a criminal record. Lay, 64, who died of a heart attack in Aspen, Colo., early Wednesday morning, will likely have his case vacated, meaning it will be as if he were never charged. Government efforts to seize more than $43 million in assets from him through criminal proceedings will likely also end with his death, although the government could file civil forfeiture proceedings. [link\|http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4027259.html\| Houston Chron ] With his death from a massive heart attack today, Ken Lay cheated justice. And then some. Not only will the Enron founder not end his days in prison, but according to legal precedent, his entire case will be erased from the records. That means that, in legal terms at least, Lay was never convicted, tried or even indicted for Enron misdeeds. For Lay's estate, and his widow Linda, the positive implication of this grim day is that the government now has no means to collect on its forfeiture claim against Lay for $43.5 million. It's hard to believe, but the case law on this point is crystal clear, says Peter Henning, professor at Wayne State University Law School. "The idea is that you can't punish a dead person. It's not fair," says Henning. "Lay didn't get a chance to go in front of a court of appeals, which he had an absolute legal right to do." [link\|http://www.forbes.com/work/management/2006/07/05/lay_cheats_justice_cz_ch_0705laycheats.html\| Forbes ] Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 12:56:47 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #260,903 by drewk 7/6/06 1:15:44 PM Reply	Is forfeiture "punishment"? If I steal your car, am convicted of theft, then die before I can appeal, does my wife get to keep the car? I'm going to have to keep this in mind if I ever get anything terminal. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,905 by folkert 7/6/06 1:33:35 PM Reply	Don't forget those you could possibly Owe money to. You know like write me a check from that bank that the Internet keeps asking for my username and password. I didna even know I had accounts at some of those banks. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #260,909 by drewk 7/6/06 1:55:47 PM Reply	True, why does debt not count? One of the articles about Lay said the concept of finality holds that the state doesn't really consider someone "guilty" until they've exhausted all appeals. Let's say I've got some heavy-duty debt. I tell the creditors I don't intend to pay them back, and never did plan to. That makes it theft, right? But that's civil, not criminal ... why? And why does that obligation outlive you, but criminal forfeiture doesn't? How would I get my debt turned into a criminal matter so I can have it wiped out by my death? Now there's some creative estate planning for you. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,913 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 2:08:03 PM 7/6/06 2:08:48 PM Reply	The criminal charges are dropped but the civil charges can go forward. The trouble in Lay's case is that, without the criminal charges (and conviction) can the civil charges go forward? Did Lay commit a crime when he was CEO? If he didn't, why do you think you (or anyone else) is owed money from the Lay Estate? Here's a good one for you though. Let's say you're a big time CEO and you're committing bad things left and right. The government is onto you. You've been convicted (but not sentenanced) and the government is looking at coming for your $40 million. And your wife decided that she might want 40 million a lot more than visiting you in jail. Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 02:08:48 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #260,764 by Simon_Jester 7/5/06 1:07:38 PM Reply	Could've been worse. He could've been found guilty and sentenced to like 6 month probation. Relax dude.
Post #260,841 by Ashton 7/5/06 10:34:56 PM Reply	Just had a little chat with DEATH (Why not, everybody's allus talkin about talkin with sky folk, and they be a Answerin and all..) Him say ~~ {OK OK.. ackshully it was the relative who goes SQUEAK who passed this on -} YES.. YES, I DID WELCOME HIM ... LAST NIGHT ... AS YOU SAY. WHAT? {to my somewhat garbled query} OH THAT.. YES, I. KNOW. {don't think Death uses words like asshole - as clarifiers.} HOW LONG? TIME, PEOPLE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, ONLY BECAUSE THEY INVENTED IT. . . . . OH, VERY WELL - HE WILL BE COUNTING THINGS, MANY THINGS FOR A VERY LONG 'TIME' (IF YOU INSIST ABOUT THAT WORD) . . {Thanks for your tim_ I almost said} HTH
Post #260,845 by admin 7/5/06 10:47:09 PM Reply	Unfortunately, he won't care. No glands, you see. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #260,849 by imqwerky 7/5/06 11:01:53 PM Reply	That reminds me... (new thread) Created as new thread #260848 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=260848\|That reminds me...] Smile, Amy [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman\|Pics of the Family]
Post #260,774 by mmoffitt 7/5/06 2:11:31 PM Reply	Don't believe it. He and William Casey are living in Tahiti. <vbg> bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #260,793 by jb4 7/5/06 4:19:35 PM Reply	Guess it really was a life sentence, after all.... jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #260,859 by drewk 7/6/06 8:58:27 AM Reply	Here's the funny thing From the KHOU link above: He told jurors his and his wife\ufffds onetime $400 million net worth, which mainly consisted of Enron stock, is "all gone." Really? All gone? So how was he at his vacation home in Aspen? I'd like to be broke like that. Oh, and a random quote from the MSNBC blog: I'm confused ... Don't you need a heart to have a heart attack? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]

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