tell you what

Post #260,851 by lincoln 7/5/06 11:28:33 PM Reply	tell you what - go commit a serious crime, go to trial and get found guilty, then let's see if you're allowed to vacation out-of-state before your sentencing hearing. - go talk to any of the thousands that lost their jobs at Enron because Lay and Fastow LIED about the company's books. - go talk to any of the thousands that lost their jobs at Arthur Anderson because Lay and Fastow LIED about the company's books, with the help of the Anderson auditors. - go talk to any of the tens of thousands that saw their 401(K)'s shredded because they believed the bullshit that Fastow and Lay spewed, all while those two were raking in ten's of millions of dollars. Court evidence shows Lay grossed $70 million in Enron's last year alone. - now go talk to these people and ask them if they believe IF JUSTICE WAS SERVED. Please report back to me after you have done this. And in the meantime, you can go cry me a river. I'll believe that the bastard's really dead when I see him strung up like Mussolini. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #260,852 by bepatient 7/5/06 11:37:54 PM Reply	What---evah. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,862 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 9:31:01 AM Reply	you're going a bit hard-core....but there are better arguments in your favor. In dying, Kenneth Lay may be vacated of all charges.
Post #260,879 by bepatient 7/6/06 10:46:10 AM Reply	He was already convicted. Jury found him guilty. He avoided jail by death. The precedent of sr execs getting convicted has been set. What "inconveniently" didn't happen was the precedent of how long he would be sentenced for...which most expected would be the rest of his life. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #260,898 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 12:47:46 PM 7/6/06 12:56:47 PM Reply	It was on appeal.... since he died before the appeal was finished, the court can move to vacate the charges -- thus he was never charged. What he couldn't do in the courtroom, former Enron Chairman Ken Lay may finally be able to achieve in death \ufffd avoid a criminal record. Lay, 64, who died of a heart attack in Aspen, Colo., early Wednesday morning, will likely have his case vacated, meaning it will be as if he were never charged. Government efforts to seize more than $43 million in assets from him through criminal proceedings will likely also end with his death, although the government could file civil forfeiture proceedings. [link\|http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4027259.html\| Houston Chron ] With his death from a massive heart attack today, Ken Lay cheated justice. And then some. Not only will the Enron founder not end his days in prison, but according to legal precedent, his entire case will be erased from the records. That means that, in legal terms at least, Lay was never convicted, tried or even indicted for Enron misdeeds. For Lay's estate, and his widow Linda, the positive implication of this grim day is that the government now has no means to collect on its forfeiture claim against Lay for $43.5 million. It's hard to believe, but the case law on this point is crystal clear, says Peter Henning, professor at Wayne State University Law School. "The idea is that you can't punish a dead person. It's not fair," says Henning. "Lay didn't get a chance to go in front of a court of appeals, which he had an absolute legal right to do." [link\|http://www.forbes.com/work/management/2006/07/05/lay_cheats_justice_cz_ch_0705laycheats.html\| Forbes ] Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 12:56:47 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #260,903 by drewk 7/6/06 1:15:44 PM Reply	Is forfeiture "punishment"? If I steal your car, am convicted of theft, then die before I can appeal, does my wife get to keep the car? I'm going to have to keep this in mind if I ever get anything terminal. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,905 by folkert 7/6/06 1:33:35 PM Reply	Don't forget those you could possibly Owe money to. You know like write me a check from that bank that the Internet keeps asking for my username and password. I didna even know I had accounts at some of those banks. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #260,909 by drewk 7/6/06 1:55:47 PM Reply	True, why does debt not count? One of the articles about Lay said the concept of finality holds that the state doesn't really consider someone "guilty" until they've exhausted all appeals. Let's say I've got some heavy-duty debt. I tell the creditors I don't intend to pay them back, and never did plan to. That makes it theft, right? But that's civil, not criminal ... why? And why does that obligation outlive you, but criminal forfeiture doesn't? How would I get my debt turned into a criminal matter so I can have it wiped out by my death? Now there's some creative estate planning for you. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #260,913 by Simon_Jester 7/6/06 2:08:03 PM 7/6/06 2:08:48 PM Reply	The criminal charges are dropped but the civil charges can go forward. The trouble in Lay's case is that, without the criminal charges (and conviction) can the civil charges go forward? Did Lay commit a crime when he was CEO? If he didn't, why do you think you (or anyone else) is owed money from the Lay Estate? Here's a good one for you though. Let's say you're a big time CEO and you're committing bad things left and right. The government is onto you. You've been convicted (but not sentenanced) and the government is looking at coming for your $40 million. And your wife decided that she might want 40 million a lot more than visiting you in jail. Edited by Simon_Jester July 6, 2006, 02:08:48 PM EDT Expand All History

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