Sorry. No. You are not correct.

Post #254,995 by bepatient 5/10/06 6:15:18 PM Reply	Sorry. No. You are not correct. Corporate aircraft, jets specifically, have a bundled cost of nearly $10/mile to operate (including maintenance turns, pilots, etc) measured against commercial that is generally between 17 and 50 CENTS per mile. If it is a 10 million per year exec..MAYBE you can justify based on a time saved argument...since their time cost is about 2500-3000 per productive hour...but contrary to popular opinion, there aren't that many of those executives around. It is a perk and possibly a security tool...but it is NOT a money saving device. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,614 by mmoffitt 5/16/06 2:58:21 PM Reply	If time is money, it most certainly is more efficient. VLJ's don't cost $10/mile. But I'll concede that fractional ownership for non-regional travel is more efficient for most businesses. In my company's case, however, one of the upcoming VLJ's could easily be cost justified. Most of our travellers zoom around the southeast and midwest and only rarely travel abroad. We have about 30 people who regularly fly commercial and piss away plenty o'time in airports and hotels. The 30 don't travel in unison and typically only 3-5 of them are going anywhere at any one time - just right for a VLJ. They're frequently gone 4-5 business days for 2-3 days of actual work. Getting 40% more out of them would be a worthwhile endeavor. But, what my company does is fairly unique. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #255,617 by bepatient 5/16/06 3:15:40 PM Reply	VLJs are not corporate jets. for the most part, corp aircraft are Bombardier (Lear), Hawkers or Gulfstreams. And they do cost that much or more. There may be some migration to VLJ in the future (continuous cost cutting)..BUT that may be short lived. The airlines want the FAA to redo the fee structure for VLJ and private aircraft. Their reasoning, there is no difference in an ATC slot for a 737 or a 4 seater so they don't deserve to pay the entire freight. Especially, in their opinion, because the overloading of the system is largely due to private aviation. I can't say I completely disagree, either. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,621 by mmoffitt 5/16/06 4:48:37 PM Reply	Now you're completely wrong. And showing a big jet bias, I might add. How much money did FBOs at small airports get when the FAA all but shut them down? Nada. How many taxpayer dollars went to the majors? And keep in mind the "little airports" that make a living off of pilots of bug smashers (like me) are also the airports that fire, police and medical a/c use. I'm well aware of the majors trying to screw the little guy. I am one of the little guys. User fees in Canada are a disaster. The last I looked, all the VLJ's to be constructed through 2007 were sold. And I seriously doubt that none of them are going to small business. That said, I think the whole SATS program is doomed to failure. The public perception is, (not too disimilar from yours, apparently), that VLJ's and piston a/c "aren't real airplanes". bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #255,626 by bepatient 5/16/06 5:40:09 PM Reply	Not really understand all the dynamics but also understand the growth projections and the situation that puts the ATC system in...and nearly all the growth is in private aviation. The current structure cannot support that and must change. Current proposal isnt great...but something has to give. You call it "screwing the little guy", but you aren't likely going to see the impact of the change as much as the vlj market and corporate aircraft...which must be tracked along with the big boys...so why should they bear essentially the entire burden of the system? They are calling it "getting screwed by the little guy"...and somewhere in the middle lies the truth :-) I have no such perception that VLJs aren't real airplanes. Simply saying that they aren't "corporate aircraft" in the Fortune 500 sense of the term. I am sure that some of these jets are going to small business owners and maybe even some fractional programs and will develop into a force in the market...but right now when some says "corporate jet", they are talking about something along the lines of a Gulfstream. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,773 by mmoffitt 5/17/06 3:49:02 PM Reply	Or Hawkers, Lears, Cessna Citations, etc. Agree w/you about what "corporate jets" means to the non-pilot contingent. But you made a minor(?) mistake: you aren't likely going to see the impact of the change as much as the vlj market and corporate aircraft...which must be tracked along with the big boys... First, what the airlines are lobbying for is user fees for any atc contact. I enjoy flying, not yacking on the radio, but occasionally I will use VFR flight following and sometimes, if I can't avoid it, I have to call approach to transit Class C airports. That'd incur a charge for a service the regs say will be provided "workload permitting". That means I may be paying for nothing. And here's a really grand example: I'm flying direct to FGX from C62. My direct path takes me through Dayton's airspace. Here's a hypothetical conversation: Me: "Dayton Approach, Cessna 7522 tango, 10 northwest, level at 3,500, direct to FGX." Dayton Approach: "Cessna 22 tango remain clear of class charley airspace." Me: "22 tango." He just told me I can't enter his airspace, so I get to fly around it AND if the big boys have their way, I'll get charged $10.00 as a bonus because I used the radio. What could be more fair than that? Second, if the VLJ's stay below 18,000 they do not have to be tracked at all. Nor do they have to use ATC. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell

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