Convert their salaries to wages.

Post #254,985 by mmoffitt 5/10/06 4:14:42 PM Reply	Convert their salaries to wages. Then calculate how much they are costing you at their $$$,$$$/hour rate to spend 2 hours getting through the ~~Gestapo~~ security screening, baggage check, etc. on each end of a business flight. Private flight is almost always cheaper than commercial flight when these costs are computed. Quick example. We have an employee fly from Fort Wayne to a plant in Texas. He asks me to look at how long it would take in my airplane to go there. In my 172, a quick plan suggests 6.5 hours (there's a small GA airport next to where he's going). But, I tell him, if the company owned even a Cessna 210 (single engine piston plane, used price around $150,000), that time would be cut down to 4 hours. But he has to fly commercial. And guess what? The closest airport he can get to is 2 hours by car away from where he's going. And he's going to be there for a 2 hour meeting. But guess what number 2? He can't get a return flight until the next morning. So, instead of walking across the street, getting on a plane and in 4 hours being at his meeting, then flying home the same day he flys commercial (he's paid for a day), he rents a hotel (company pays that), he rents a car (company pays that), he eats for two days (company pays that) and he buys airplane tickets. He's gone for two days and incurred all kinds of expenses that he would have to incur if we owned a corporate aircraft. So here's a partial list of savings: Total Trip time: Company a/c 11 hours Commercial a/c 48 hours Time at airport: Company a/c 10 minutes Commercial a/c 4 hours Car Rental: Company a/c $0.00 Commercial a/c $75.00 Hotel: Company a/c $0.00 Commercial a/c $150.00 Corporate use of GA aircraft saves all kinds of money - and something you can't make more of - time. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #254,987 by Another Scott 5/10/06 4:29:30 PM Reply	If you look at it that way, Blue Star Jets makes more sense. [link\|http://www.bluestarjets.com/\|Blue Star Jets]: Blue Star Jets is the worlds most comprehensive and efficient private jet brokerage company. With access to operators of the largest networks of luxury charter jets, we arrange access to the ideal private aircraft for any given charter flight to any destination in the world on a moment's notice. There are no membership fees, acquisition costs, or monthly maintenance charges and reserving a private charter flight couldn't be easier. No matter what the size or length of the trip, BSJ arranges straightforward access to jet charter service on the ideal private charter aircraft for each and every trip. Because we have access to the largest selection of operators of private jets in every size and performance range, you can be assured that every flight will meet your needs. (No personal experience with them, Caveat Emptor, etc.) There's no doubt that commercial aircraft flights are hugely inefficient from a time perspective these days. I don't think it then follows that companies should have their own planes. :-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #254,996 by ben_tilly 5/10/06 6:24:04 PM Reply	Yes, this is something that should be outsourced And to answer Bill Patient's point about costs being $10/mile, the case where a corporate jet makes more sense is when an entire team has to be flown somewhere. If you're flying 6 people at once, then the cost per mile is competitive with commercial aircraft, and when you add convenience, it is worthwhile. However most companies don't have these needs very often. Certainly not enough to justify owning their own jets. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #254,999 by bepatient 5/10/06 7:03:00 PM Reply	I've seen this once and here was the scenario. One team, 12 members, needed to be in Philadelphia, then Wichita, then Kentucky and they wanted to do this in one day...max 2. The cost of the charter made the one day trip possible when commercial could not (connection, then connection made one day impossible). The saved time and hotel expense in addition to the 12 open-jay multi-airline itineraries (essentially all at full coach when it was expensive) made the cost of charter viable. We chartered the jet. --------- I also chartered a jet to tranfer 12 executives to Paris and 12 back. First class airfare would have been 72k. Our corp at the time only allowed business class so commercial would have been 48k. Charter cost, 85k. It would have taken alot of hours for these 200k types to make up the nearly 40000 difference. Why did we charter? Chairman was one of the execs. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,004 by ben_tilly 5/10/06 8:34:48 PM Reply	Wanna bet the chairman made more than 200K? :-P I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,005 by bepatient 5/10/06 8:42:22 PM Reply	Yes he did. I did the budgets. It still wasn't cheaper :-p If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,006 by ben_tilly 5/10/06 8:44:37 PM Reply	But it was for you. :-P You had to balance losing money for the company and keeping your job, versus saving the company money and finding a new job. Easy choice, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,009 by bepatient 5/10/06 9:21:19 PM Reply	Too low on the totem poll to bitch and smart enough to realize it. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,624 by ben_tilly 5/16/06 5:05:16 PM Reply	Random thought... If I am a business and I hire an employee, I pay that employee a salary, I probably pay that much again in benefits, and I expect that employee to generate enough business to justify that expenditure with plenty to spare. Therefore even if salary for lost time doesn't cover the difference of having an employee on a private plane, it still can be a good business to put them there. (But I'll agree with you that usually it is a status symbol and isn't worthwhile.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #254,992 by drewk 5/10/06 4:43:10 PM Reply	True, but ... How many trips exactly like that does it take to amortize the cost? Modify your estimate for: Multi-day trips Trips to places with airports nearby Times there more people travelling than will fit on your Cessna Times multiple people are flying to different places What is the pilot's salary? Are there parking fees at the airport? How about maintenance costs? I don't doubt that a lot of people could fly GA cheaper than commercial, but I don't think owning your own company plane is likely to work for small companies. And in any case the calculation is a bit more complex than you presented. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #254,995 by bepatient 5/10/06 6:15:18 PM Reply	Sorry. No. You are not correct. Corporate aircraft, jets specifically, have a bundled cost of nearly $10/mile to operate (including maintenance turns, pilots, etc) measured against commercial that is generally between 17 and 50 CENTS per mile. If it is a 10 million per year exec..MAYBE you can justify based on a time saved argument...since their time cost is about 2500-3000 per productive hour...but contrary to popular opinion, there aren't that many of those executives around. It is a perk and possibly a security tool...but it is NOT a money saving device. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,614 by mmoffitt 5/16/06 2:58:21 PM Reply	If time is money, it most certainly is more efficient. VLJ's don't cost $10/mile. But I'll concede that fractional ownership for non-regional travel is more efficient for most businesses. In my company's case, however, one of the upcoming VLJ's could easily be cost justified. Most of our travellers zoom around the southeast and midwest and only rarely travel abroad. We have about 30 people who regularly fly commercial and piss away plenty o'time in airports and hotels. The 30 don't travel in unison and typically only 3-5 of them are going anywhere at any one time - just right for a VLJ. They're frequently gone 4-5 business days for 2-3 days of actual work. Getting 40% more out of them would be a worthwhile endeavor. But, what my company does is fairly unique. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #255,617 by bepatient 5/16/06 3:15:40 PM Reply	VLJs are not corporate jets. for the most part, corp aircraft are Bombardier (Lear), Hawkers or Gulfstreams. And they do cost that much or more. There may be some migration to VLJ in the future (continuous cost cutting)..BUT that may be short lived. The airlines want the FAA to redo the fee structure for VLJ and private aircraft. Their reasoning, there is no difference in an ATC slot for a 737 or a 4 seater so they don't deserve to pay the entire freight. Especially, in their opinion, because the overloading of the system is largely due to private aviation. I can't say I completely disagree, either. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,621 by mmoffitt 5/16/06 4:48:37 PM Reply	Now you're completely wrong. And showing a big jet bias, I might add. How much money did FBOs at small airports get when the FAA all but shut them down? Nada. How many taxpayer dollars went to the majors? And keep in mind the "little airports" that make a living off of pilots of bug smashers (like me) are also the airports that fire, police and medical a/c use. I'm well aware of the majors trying to screw the little guy. I am one of the little guys. User fees in Canada are a disaster. The last I looked, all the VLJ's to be constructed through 2007 were sold. And I seriously doubt that none of them are going to small business. That said, I think the whole SATS program is doomed to failure. The public perception is, (not too disimilar from yours, apparently), that VLJ's and piston a/c "aren't real airplanes". bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #255,626 by bepatient 5/16/06 5:40:09 PM Reply	Not really understand all the dynamics but also understand the growth projections and the situation that puts the ATC system in...and nearly all the growth is in private aviation. The current structure cannot support that and must change. Current proposal isnt great...but something has to give. You call it "screwing the little guy", but you aren't likely going to see the impact of the change as much as the vlj market and corporate aircraft...which must be tracked along with the big boys...so why should they bear essentially the entire burden of the system? They are calling it "getting screwed by the little guy"...and somewhere in the middle lies the truth :-) I have no such perception that VLJs aren't real airplanes. Simply saying that they aren't "corporate aircraft" in the Fortune 500 sense of the term. I am sure that some of these jets are going to small business owners and maybe even some fractional programs and will develop into a force in the market...but right now when some says "corporate jet", they are talking about something along the lines of a Gulfstream. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #255,773 by mmoffitt 5/17/06 3:49:02 PM Reply	Or Hawkers, Lears, Cessna Citations, etc. Agree w/you about what "corporate jets" means to the non-pilot contingent. But you made a minor(?) mistake: you aren't likely going to see the impact of the change as much as the vlj market and corporate aircraft...which must be tracked along with the big boys... First, what the airlines are lobbying for is user fees for any atc contact. I enjoy flying, not yacking on the radio, but occasionally I will use VFR flight following and sometimes, if I can't avoid it, I have to call approach to transit Class C airports. That'd incur a charge for a service the regs say will be provided "workload permitting". That means I may be paying for nothing. And here's a really grand example: I'm flying direct to FGX from C62. My direct path takes me through Dayton's airspace. Here's a hypothetical conversation: Me: "Dayton Approach, Cessna 7522 tango, 10 northwest, level at 3,500, direct to FGX." Dayton Approach: "Cessna 22 tango remain clear of class charley airspace." Me: "22 tango." He just told me I can't enter his airspace, so I get to fly around it AND if the big boys have their way, I'll get charged $10.00 as a bonus because I used the radio. What could be more fair than that? Second, if the VLJ's stay below 18,000 they do not have to be tracked at all. Nor do they have to use ATC. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell

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