Yes, it is.

Post #253,756 by ben_tilly 4/28/06 1:30:59 PM Reply	Yes, it is. Democracy is rule by the people. Contrary to recent US propaganda, democracy is not the same as capitalism. Their interests align to some extent, but the alignment is not perfect. One example of the misalignment is that excessive concentrations of wealth create small groups of people who have the motivation and resources to try to take over the country. Therefore it is in the interests of democracy to keep such concentrations from developing. However measures to do this must necessarily run counter to capitalism. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #253,771 by boxley 4/28/06 2:06:23 PM Reply	Oh you mean national socialism, got it Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,781 by ben_tilly 4/28/06 3:00:51 PM Reply	Nice insult Insults are for when you don't have any facts left, so I guess you're out of facts. For the record, National Socialism was to democracy as the neocons are to freedom and justice. For a historical figure who closer represents the view that I'm presenting, look at Teddy Roosevelt. (You know, the guy who actually introduced estate taxes.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #253,782 by boxley 4/28/06 3:16:41 PM Reply	not an isult just a description of what you want to do Riches are yours for your lifetime only, then they are nationalized, that is a socialist idea practiced by a sense of the state or nation owns the fruits of your labor, you might not like the label but that is what you are describing. now, off to nawleans if the famdamily is ready. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,792 by ben_tilly 4/28/06 4:43:11 PM Reply	Then use another description Your description just happens to be the name of the single most reviled political party in 20'th century European history. And you claim that it is just intended as a description. Ri-ight. Pull the other one. It's got bells on. Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #253,910 by boxley 4/30/06 7:23:22 PM Reply	well lets see, that party believed that all wealth was at the forbearance of the state. The state could confiscate at will and did from selected members of society who they claimed were rich and were simply reclaiming those parts of the state which were wrongly collected by the jews. You are expanding on that. You do not beleive in private property, you think it is just a single generational loan from the government to the individual. To me that is very scary that so many people seem to think the same way. With attitudes like that it wont be long before the "why wait until they're dead" crowd comes in and takes it a step further. When they do that it wont be the wasp's they start with. Your supposed reason is that we dont want a confiscatory aristocracy or religious body so you devise a scheme that is identical and held by political dynasties, no different from the european small states model in medeival times. Then after you re-invent the wheel you loudly proclaim that this is different. No, your goal is to ensure that only the National State Owns things and People. That was the heart and soul of National Socialism. Im sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but read the economic beliefs of that group and suspend your knowledge of their racial policies and you will see similarities to your economic belief system. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,915 by jb4 4/30/06 7:46:30 PM Reply	You been taking rhetoric lessons from BeeP? You do not beleive in private property, you think it is just a single generational loan from the government to the individual. I've been staying out of this because I see both sides of the argument, and I haven't yet decided where I will eventually weigh in on this. But, cripes, Box, he never said this, or naything like in the referenced post, or any other post I read of his. Such a blatant strawman argument is sucha complete turnoff, that any else reading this is most likely to give you a big "bullshit" and ignore that and any other argument you might wish to offer in support of your position. Let's try sticking to the knitting, OK? jb4 "Every Republican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." — an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #253,921 by boxley 4/30/06 8:13:34 PM Reply	Sorry Ben, Ascribed a quote from Todd to You "Sorry man, while you live, you play and maybe win. When you die, it all goes back to the banker for the next round." That is the Idea that there is no personal ownership of wealth, its a loan from the government. Now I do not expect to be hit when I die and my Ma had to scrub floors to pay off the old mans owes and doughs but I firmly believe that mismanages wealth shrinks not grows and a new better viking will inherit thru business cutthroatedness and I want a chance for my Kids to have a shot. From observation I think it is 6 generations. New Wealth, growth, stodgy conservative, dissapation, growth. How is Mrs Ford and all the little Fords doing? 60 years they will be begging for a floor spot with the UAWSPD. United Autoworkers Space Division. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,927 by drewk 4/30/06 9:16:20 PM Reply	I don't think that's the "banker" he meant It sounded to me more like, "You can't take it with you." === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #253,929 by boxley 4/30/06 9:22:44 PM Reply	maybe not but the freekin local squire with his hand out shouldnt get shinola and all the posturing about, well we have to ensure... etc is that these people dont have a clue about what is MINE! Private! I already paid you fucks! thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,958 by tuberculosis 5/1/06 12:20:49 AM Reply	What are you gonna do with it from a hole in the ground? [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #253,979 by boxley 5/1/06 8:17:45 AM Reply	I think my kids could sqander as efficiently as a government Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #253,992 by pwhysall 5/1/06 9:35:56 AM 5/1/06 9:36:23 AM Reply	Not spend it on invading Iraq, for one thing. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall May 1, 2006, 09:36:23 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #253,957 by tuberculosis 5/1/06 12:20:19 AM Reply	It was a reference to Monopoly [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #253,963 by ben_tilly 5/1/06 1:49:59 AM Reply	The usual quote is "rags to rags in three generations" A man is born poor but motivated, builds up a financial empire. His sons never have to work and never learn how to. They piss away the fortune. His grandsons are in rags again. Great fortunes take longer to vanish, but the usual difference is that there gets to be several middle generations. If the fortune is large and the money is tied up in ways that the inheritors cannot readily waste, there might be quite a few such middle generations. The problem comes when someone gets the bright idea of manipulating the political system to make the wealth travel further. Then we wind up having to deal with someone like George III. (Pick either one - both were bad for America.) About capitalism, I firmly believe that "wealth" and "ownership" are societally created ideas. It isn't that they are granted to us by the government, it is that both government and ownership are powerful fictions created by people. So if we're going to make up rules, I'd like to see rules made up that tend to do well for people. Now the fact is that capitalism, for all of its shortcomings, is pretty darned effective. Therefore in general I'm a capitalist. However capitalism is not, for me, a root value. Therefore I'm in favour of deviations (eg taxes) from a purely capitalistic society if I see a lot of value in them. The idea of the estate tax is a deviation that I'm in favour of. (That said, I would like to see the level at which it kicks in raised.) However I'm against interventions that I think bring bad consequences and no good results. For example confiscating everyone's possessions upon death would be a horrible idea because I believe that the government will generally handle that property less effectively than private owners will. Furthermore saying that that is OK far too conveniently leads to abuses from the people in power. (Unfortunately, very few of my positions fit on a postcard...) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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