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New Hitchens agrees with you.
I know it's a little late, but I just came across this. [link|http://www.ivanyi-consultants.com/articles/inprisonment.html|Christopher Hitchens] in the WSJ opinion pages on 2/23/2006:

It is best not to mince words. The imprisonment of David Irving by the Austrian authorities is a disgrace. It is a state punishment for a crime -- that of expression and argument and publication -- that is not a legal offense in Mr. Irving's country of birth and that could not be an offense under the U.S. Constitution. It is to be hoped, by all those who value the right to dissent, that his appeal against both sentence and conviction will be successful.

[...]

Now may I mince a word or two? I have been writing in defense of Mr. Irving for several years. When St. Martin's Press canceled its contract to print his edition of the Goebbels diaries, which it did out of fear of reprisal, I complained loudly and was rewarded by an honest statement from the relevant editor -- Thomas Mallon -- that his decision had been a "profile in prudence." I will not take refuge in the claim that I was only defending Mr. Irving's right to free speech. I was also defending his right to free inquiry. You may have to spend time on some grim and Gothic Web sites to find this out, but he is in fact not a "denier," but a revisionist, and much-hated by the full-dress "denial" faction. The pages on Goebbels, as in his books on Dresden, Churchill and Hitler, contain some highly important and very damning findings of his work in the archives of the Third Reich. (The Goebbels book contains final proof that the Nazis financed Sir Oswald Mosley's blackshirts in England: a claim that Mosley's many sympathizers have long denied.)

Compared to this useful evidence, the fact that Mr. Irving was once a Mosley supporter is unimportant to me. I believe myself to be grown-up enough to read a historian, however tendentious, and winnow the wheat from the chaff all by myself. I happen to teach part time at the New School for Social Research in New York, which was a proud haven for antifascist scholars in the 1930s. In those awful days, the school even produced an unexpurgated and footnoted translation of "Mein Kampf," replete with all its racist incitement, in order (too late) to enlighten American readers. I keep a copy on my shelf, partly because if I needed to refer to it in a hurry I would now have a very hard time obtaining it from any of today's nerve-racked American booksellers.

I would not, however, as H.L. Mencken once did, give "Mein Kampf" a lenient review. In fact, and if it matters, I have also authored, or caused to be published, several harsh attacks on Mr. Irving. (His book, arguing that the 1956 revolution in Hungary was a rebellion against Jewish Bolshevism, owes its well-deserved obscurity partly to my efforts and to those of the American historian Kai Bird.) I have heard Mr. Irving say detestable things, and seen him reported as saying even worse things, and there came a time when I could not manage to go on having conversations with him. (Vide my recent book "Love, Poverty and War.") However, I claim the absolute right to have such a chat if I change my mind, and to consult the man who knew enough German, and enough about the subject, to expose "The Hitler Diaries" as a fabrication when several establishment historians had fallen for the hoax.

[...]


I agree. The best way to fight ignorance and propoganda is with facts, information and free debate - not censorship.

I've always been troubled by anti-"hate speech" laws, but I have a strong feeling that incitement to violence should be very strongly discouraged by the law. Sometimes it can be difficult to draw the line between them.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sadly, it may come down to -
"We cannot make speech safe for people; only might we aim to train people adept in the art of language." (And likely 53 variantions on a theme)

Sadly.. because - the predicate appears to be a Sisyphean Task, given the aggregate accomplishments to date. Nobody imagined a species in perpetual adolescence.

Despite his strange bedfellows, Hitchens does Language. We need all the outliers - the center has become so unlovably obtuse and the extremists boringly scurrilous.


Wolf! Wolf!

New "Discourage"?
How does the law discourage one from doing things, if it doesn't punish one for doing them?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean, there.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I fought over that word for a while.
It was originally "sanction" but that has 2 meanings. I was trying to be too tearse and wasn't clear.

IMO, incitement to violence should be a serious offense against the law and should be punished severely (in severe cases. I don't think an 8 year old convincing others to pull Sally's hair is such a case.). It's shouldn't be a mindless law like [link|http://www.facts1.com/|3 Strikes] - judges and prosecutors need to have some flexibility to apply the law, and be able to use it as a Cudgel of Justice in serious circumstances.

If, e.g., Rev. Smith ministers to a brainwashed congregation and preaches hate of, say, blue eyed people, and it results in intimidation and attacks on such people, well Rev. Smith should go to jail for a long time for that, IMO. Such incitement shouldn't be tolerated in a civil society.

I hope that's a little clearer.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I'm with you.
You are in favour of anti-hate-speech legislation - which is fair enough, as long as you're comfortable with the definition of hate speech as being speech designed to incite violence or the threat of violence.

Which, in the UK, it most emphatically is not. It's speech designed to "incite hatred", which is not at all the same thing.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I'd call it anti-incitement rather than hate speech.
[link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat9.htm|"Hate Speech"] is far too broad, IMO. In the USA, it's more like this:

Hate-crime legislation increases a criminal's sentence if it can be proven that the crime of which they were found guilty was motivated by hatred of the victim because of their race, religion, sex, or some other factor.

Hate speech legislation criminalizes the denigration, ridicule, or expression of hatred against a person or group on the basis of the victim's race, religion, etc.

These types of legislation do not offer any special protections to any group. They usually include religion and sex as protected classes. They protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, and others alike; they protect both men and women. Those laws which include sexual orientation as a protected class shield everyone equally, whether they be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual.

Whenever such legislation is introduced, there is considerable opposition -- mainly from religious and social conservatives -- to the inclusion of sexual orientation as a protected class.


I don't support "hate crime" or "hate speech" legislation - at least as they're outlined above. Someone who's brutally beaten and robbed is just as victimized as anyone else beaten and robbed independent of whatever group(s) they belong to.

Punish the incitement. Don't punish differently because of the characteristics of the victim. [link|http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Equal_protection|Equal protection] under the law needs to mean something.

Hate speech legislation could be used to criminalize satire or ethnic jokes. That's wrong. Poor taste and crude behavior is to be frowned upon, not criminalized.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Mirrors my view on DUI laws
Punish the behavior, not the reason.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yeah-never mind *why* they drink,punish *all* drunk driving!
New punish the impaired driver whether cell phone or booze
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Idiots is the problem, as always.
It's just not possible to legislate for the "reasonable man", who'll stop in for a pie and a pint on the way home.

Instead, we have to say that such and such a level of alcohol in the bloodstream is verboten, in order to get the message across that no, you can't drink 10 pints of wifebeater and be safely in control of a ton and a half of steel at 60 MPH, no matter how big your beer belly is.

Because the second case is what happens if you legislate thinking that people are going to be sensible and do the former.

Thank the fuckwits in society for our lowest-common-denominator approach to lawmaking.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New To be fair,
I did recently see Mein Kampf in Borders. It was re-printed in 2003, [link|http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1410102033/sr=8-2/qid=1143513661/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-3970583-2561434?%5Fencoding=UTF8|too]. (Must ... Resist ... Urge ... To ... Burn........)

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New read it twice, once when I was ten and again 20 yrs ago
bunch of drivel but you have to understand the drivel to discourse with certain types.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
     To head off the upcoming questions: - (Arkadiy) - (22)
         I do. - (CRConrad) - (5)
             When they came for neo-nazis, I was right behind them... -NT - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                 Gibber, gibber. You want to say something, be explicit. -NT - (CRConrad) - (3)
                     OK, explicitly - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                         Bullshit, twice over. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                             Re: Bullshit, twice over. - (Arkadiy)
         I agree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
             Anent the symbolism - (Ashton)
         I disagree with what he says and - (andread) - (1)
             ICDLRPD (new thread) - (Ashton)
         Hitchens agrees with you. - (Another Scott) - (11)
             Sadly, it may come down to - - (Ashton)
             "Discourage"? - (pwhysall) - (7)
                 I fought over that word for a while. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     I'm with you. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                         I'd call it anti-incitement rather than hate speech. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Mirrors my view on DUI laws - (drewk) - (3)
                                 Yeah-never mind *why* they drink,punish *all* drunk driving! -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                     punish the impaired driver whether cell phone or booze -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Idiots is the problem, as always. - (pwhysall)
             To be fair, - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                 read it twice, once when I was ten and again 20 yrs ago - (boxley)

I wear permanent press so I'm always creased.
90 ms