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New To head off the upcoming questions:
No, I don't think the disgusting SOB who is now in jail in Austria should be there. Only direct appeal to action is worth jail time, and AFAIK he did not do that.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New I do.
For one thing, the claims he made -- repeated as often and in as many variations as they were, in the tone he made them, and read in the context that they were usually read -- are "close enough for government work"; i.e, I think it's quite arguable that they *are* tantamount to an "appeal to action", albeit ever so slightly in-direct.

Secondly, the above only goes for his writings. He was also a very popular speaker in certain circles, and neither you nor I can know for sure what he said there... But would you want to bet that it *didn't* go a step or three farther than he dared do in his printed writings (which are and were publically available to law enforcement as well as "fellow" historians)?

Good riddance to the arsehole, say I. My only complaint, if any, would be that it took them so frigging long... WTF were they waiting for; for Arnie's old pal Kurt to die, perhaps? (Yeah, yeah, I know, they only happened to nab him by coincidence; presumably, he hasn't kept a very high profile in Austria lately... But couldn't they have had him extradited from Britain or France or whereverthefuck he'd been hanging out?)

Well, no, that's not my *only* complaint: Also, they should have put him away for a lot longer than the three years or whatever it was that they gave him. The rest of his natural, preferably.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like David Irving. - Not [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|mr. Hat]
New When they came for neo-nazis, I was right behind them...

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Gibber, gibber. You want to say something, be explicit.
New OK, explicitly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Secondly, the above only goes for his writings. He was also a very popular speaker in certain circles, and neither you nor I can know for sure what he said there... But would you want to bet that it *didn't* go a step or three farther than he dared do in his printed writings (which are and were publically available to law enforcement as well as "fellow" historians)?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

What you have said applies to everybody, to you and me more than to many other people. The defences you refuse to grant to that fruit are the ones currently protecting you.

And another thing:

I've just fininshed reading a book written by a survivor of 1937 in Russia. Unlike many, she did not go to prison then - Stalin only killed her husband. Her most dreadful memory is about people who were saying about the same thing you're saying now: "Would you bet that so-and-so was not really a spy? So what if we don't knoW anything bad about him - he cold have said the most dreadful things in private. Where there is smoke there is fire."

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Bullshit, twice over.
Arkadiy provides the answer to which of the possible wrong-headed objections to my previous post he meant by his overly concise one... And -- surprise, surprise! -- turns out it's *both* of them:
What you have said applies to everybody, to you and me more than to many other people. The defences you refuse to grant to that fruit are the ones currently protecting you.
Oh yeah? So, are YOU currently engaging in illegal hate speech...? 'Coz I certainly aren't, you know... Or are you claiming that denying the Holocaust is anything *but* hate speech? That it can have *any* other real purpose than promoting a second one?


[...] people who were saying about the same thing you're saying now: "Would you bet that so-and-so was not really a spy? So what if we don't knoW anything bad about him - he cold have said the most dreadful things in private. Where there is smoke there is fire."
That's so fucking stupid, I don't know whether to get angry at the apparently attempted insult, or just exasperated at the stupidity you're displaying. (Depends, of course, on whether the display is true or faked.)

To be more explicit myself: Yeah, WE don't know; you and I. But the combined judicial and law enforcement systems of the several European (and possibly other) nations where he did hold those speeches would presumably be able to find at least *some* witnesses that could be persuaded to testify as to what he actually *did* say, in his speeches or at the banquets they probably held in the evenings after some of them(*). So, to rephrase my question from the previous post: You wanna bet that NONE of those potential witnesses would say he'd ever gone a step or three farther than "just" denying the Holocaust?




(*): Actually, I'd have thought that that was what they'd done, already. Maybe they thought the easier-to-prove denial-in-writing thing was enough; that three years would be sufficient to discredit a guy as old as Irving. (And take a bit of the authorial and speechifying spark out of him... Heck, come to think of it, maybe they didn't *want* to try for more, so as not to make too much of a martyr out of him.) Anyway, I was of course talking about convicting him not based on my speculations here, but on those testimonials that I'm speculating about.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Yes Mr. Garrison, genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes, like German people. - [link|http://maxpages.com/southpark2k/Episode_105|Mr. Hat]
New Re: Bullshit, twice over.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh yeah? So, are YOU currently engaging in illegal hate speech...? 'Coz I certainly aren't, you know... Or are you claiming that denying the Holocaust is anything *but* hate speech? That it can have *any* other real purpose than promoting a second one?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I am currently engaging in declaring that anything, however hateful, should be allowed to be said. I am currently engaging in defence of hate speach. If it's not a crime yet, it ought to be.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, WE don't know; you and I. But the combined judicial and law enforcement systems of the several European (and possibly other) nations where he did hold those speeches would presumably be able to find at least *some* witnesses that could be persuaded to testify as to what he actually *did* say, in his speeches or at the banquets they probably held in the evenings after some of them(*).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And NKVD was justs as adept at finding witnesses who could be pursuaded.

Was any evidense of incitement to violence presented at the trial? I don't care what he did or not do - I car ewhat he was convicted of. What he was convicted of constitutes an unjust punshment and a dangerous trend.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New I agree
David Irving is a great example of a bad historian, somebody that lets there personal bias rather then evidence, control what goes into their books. But to say that he should be jailed for being a Holocaust denier is equivlent to saying that people should be jailed for writing books that take a non-government approved posistions on history.

I understand that cases like this can be complex, because many people will carefully skirt the line on how far they can go without directly advocating violence. But nothing I have seen says that Irving is in that category.

On a side note, I don't think the European countries understand the degree to which these laws make the various forms of neonazism and fascism popular. Not only does making it illegal create a black market for nazi goods, but when any government tries to make an idea illegal they just encourage some people to embrace it.

Jay
New Anent the symbolism
- the unanticipated result of most cases of trying to make odious character traits submit to The Law:

I have a couple of Nazi pins ~1" dia porcelain-filled lapel badges; swastika on white background; text around outer edge. (Part of some trade in an antiques show, long ago.)

And today - while these are authentic artifacts of an age:
I can't see "selling them" to any highest bidder - maybe donate to some museum, in the end. (They are very clean - no visible bloodstains at all..) thus might otherwise end up on someone's altar. I suppose I'd share in that karma.

These are Icons deserving of -Clasting

New I disagree with what he says and
would not defend to the death his right to say it

he could never be jailed in the US (could change at any time)
but the weird part is that
most Holocaust deniers are also anti-Semites
my guess is that in private they admire the Holocaust
more than almost anything else

denial is just a recruiting tool

A
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New ICDLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #246196 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=246196|ICDLRPD]

New Hitchens agrees with you.
I know it's a little late, but I just came across this. [link|http://www.ivanyi-consultants.com/articles/inprisonment.html|Christopher Hitchens] in the WSJ opinion pages on 2/23/2006:

It is best not to mince words. The imprisonment of David Irving by the Austrian authorities is a disgrace. It is a state punishment for a crime -- that of expression and argument and publication -- that is not a legal offense in Mr. Irving's country of birth and that could not be an offense under the U.S. Constitution. It is to be hoped, by all those who value the right to dissent, that his appeal against both sentence and conviction will be successful.

[...]

Now may I mince a word or two? I have been writing in defense of Mr. Irving for several years. When St. Martin's Press canceled its contract to print his edition of the Goebbels diaries, which it did out of fear of reprisal, I complained loudly and was rewarded by an honest statement from the relevant editor -- Thomas Mallon -- that his decision had been a "profile in prudence." I will not take refuge in the claim that I was only defending Mr. Irving's right to free speech. I was also defending his right to free inquiry. You may have to spend time on some grim and Gothic Web sites to find this out, but he is in fact not a "denier," but a revisionist, and much-hated by the full-dress "denial" faction. The pages on Goebbels, as in his books on Dresden, Churchill and Hitler, contain some highly important and very damning findings of his work in the archives of the Third Reich. (The Goebbels book contains final proof that the Nazis financed Sir Oswald Mosley's blackshirts in England: a claim that Mosley's many sympathizers have long denied.)

Compared to this useful evidence, the fact that Mr. Irving was once a Mosley supporter is unimportant to me. I believe myself to be grown-up enough to read a historian, however tendentious, and winnow the wheat from the chaff all by myself. I happen to teach part time at the New School for Social Research in New York, which was a proud haven for antifascist scholars in the 1930s. In those awful days, the school even produced an unexpurgated and footnoted translation of "Mein Kampf," replete with all its racist incitement, in order (too late) to enlighten American readers. I keep a copy on my shelf, partly because if I needed to refer to it in a hurry I would now have a very hard time obtaining it from any of today's nerve-racked American booksellers.

I would not, however, as H.L. Mencken once did, give "Mein Kampf" a lenient review. In fact, and if it matters, I have also authored, or caused to be published, several harsh attacks on Mr. Irving. (His book, arguing that the 1956 revolution in Hungary was a rebellion against Jewish Bolshevism, owes its well-deserved obscurity partly to my efforts and to those of the American historian Kai Bird.) I have heard Mr. Irving say detestable things, and seen him reported as saying even worse things, and there came a time when I could not manage to go on having conversations with him. (Vide my recent book "Love, Poverty and War.") However, I claim the absolute right to have such a chat if I change my mind, and to consult the man who knew enough German, and enough about the subject, to expose "The Hitler Diaries" as a fabrication when several establishment historians had fallen for the hoax.

[...]


I agree. The best way to fight ignorance and propoganda is with facts, information and free debate - not censorship.

I've always been troubled by anti-"hate speech" laws, but I have a strong feeling that incitement to violence should be very strongly discouraged by the law. Sometimes it can be difficult to draw the line between them.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Sadly, it may come down to -
"We cannot make speech safe for people; only might we aim to train people adept in the art of language." (And likely 53 variantions on a theme)

Sadly.. because - the predicate appears to be a Sisyphean Task, given the aggregate accomplishments to date. Nobody imagined a species in perpetual adolescence.

Despite his strange bedfellows, Hitchens does Language. We need all the outliers - the center has become so unlovably obtuse and the extremists boringly scurrilous.


Wolf! Wolf!

New "Discourage"?
How does the law discourage one from doing things, if it doesn't punish one for doing them?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean, there.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I fought over that word for a while.
It was originally "sanction" but that has 2 meanings. I was trying to be too tearse and wasn't clear.

IMO, incitement to violence should be a serious offense against the law and should be punished severely (in severe cases. I don't think an 8 year old convincing others to pull Sally's hair is such a case.). It's shouldn't be a mindless law like [link|http://www.facts1.com/|3 Strikes] - judges and prosecutors need to have some flexibility to apply the law, and be able to use it as a Cudgel of Justice in serious circumstances.

If, e.g., Rev. Smith ministers to a brainwashed congregation and preaches hate of, say, blue eyed people, and it results in intimidation and attacks on such people, well Rev. Smith should go to jail for a long time for that, IMO. Such incitement shouldn't be tolerated in a civil society.

I hope that's a little clearer.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I'm with you.
You are in favour of anti-hate-speech legislation - which is fair enough, as long as you're comfortable with the definition of hate speech as being speech designed to incite violence or the threat of violence.

Which, in the UK, it most emphatically is not. It's speech designed to "incite hatred", which is not at all the same thing.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New I'd call it anti-incitement rather than hate speech.
[link|http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat9.htm|"Hate Speech"] is far too broad, IMO. In the USA, it's more like this:

Hate-crime legislation increases a criminal's sentence if it can be proven that the crime of which they were found guilty was motivated by hatred of the victim because of their race, religion, sex, or some other factor.

Hate speech legislation criminalizes the denigration, ridicule, or expression of hatred against a person or group on the basis of the victim's race, religion, etc.

These types of legislation do not offer any special protections to any group. They usually include religion and sex as protected classes. They protect Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, and others alike; they protect both men and women. Those laws which include sexual orientation as a protected class shield everyone equally, whether they be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual.

Whenever such legislation is introduced, there is considerable opposition -- mainly from religious and social conservatives -- to the inclusion of sexual orientation as a protected class.


I don't support "hate crime" or "hate speech" legislation - at least as they're outlined above. Someone who's brutally beaten and robbed is just as victimized as anyone else beaten and robbed independent of whatever group(s) they belong to.

Punish the incitement. Don't punish differently because of the characteristics of the victim. [link|http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Equal_protection|Equal protection] under the law needs to mean something.

Hate speech legislation could be used to criminalize satire or ethnic jokes. That's wrong. Poor taste and crude behavior is to be frowned upon, not criminalized.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Mirrors my view on DUI laws
Punish the behavior, not the reason.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Yeah-never mind *why* they drink,punish *all* drunk driving!
New punish the impaired driver whether cell phone or booze
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Idiots is the problem, as always.
It's just not possible to legislate for the "reasonable man", who'll stop in for a pie and a pint on the way home.

Instead, we have to say that such and such a level of alcohol in the bloodstream is verboten, in order to get the message across that no, you can't drink 10 pints of wifebeater and be safely in control of a ton and a half of steel at 60 MPH, no matter how big your beer belly is.

Because the second case is what happens if you legislate thinking that people are going to be sensible and do the former.

Thank the fuckwits in society for our lowest-common-denominator approach to lawmaking.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New To be fair,
I did recently see Mein Kampf in Borders. It was re-printed in 2003, [link|http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1410102033/sr=8-2/qid=1143513661/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-3970583-2561434?%5Fencoding=UTF8|too]. (Must ... Resist ... Urge ... To ... Burn........)

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New read it twice, once when I was ten and again 20 yrs ago
bunch of drivel but you have to understand the drivel to discourse with certain types.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
     To head off the upcoming questions: - (Arkadiy) - (22)
         I do. - (CRConrad) - (5)
             When they came for neo-nazis, I was right behind them... -NT - (Arkadiy) - (4)
                 Gibber, gibber. You want to say something, be explicit. -NT - (CRConrad) - (3)
                     OK, explicitly - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                         Bullshit, twice over. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                             Re: Bullshit, twice over. - (Arkadiy)
         I agree - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
             Anent the symbolism - (Ashton)
         I disagree with what he says and - (andread) - (1)
             ICDLRPD (new thread) - (Ashton)
         Hitchens agrees with you. - (Another Scott) - (11)
             Sadly, it may come down to - - (Ashton)
             "Discourage"? - (pwhysall) - (7)
                 I fought over that word for a while. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     I'm with you. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                         I'd call it anti-incitement rather than hate speech. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                             Mirrors my view on DUI laws - (drewk) - (3)
                                 Yeah-never mind *why* they drink,punish *all* drunk driving! -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                     punish the impaired driver whether cell phone or booze -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Idiots is the problem, as always. - (pwhysall)
             To be fair, - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                 read it twice, once when I was ten and again 20 yrs ago - (boxley)

Deep down facial creases!
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