OK. Kneejerk emoticon misplaced again.

Hence my comment about educational problems in the service.

There are good reasons to minimise thinking for oneself in a combat situation. Because of this, combat situations are often taken as a mitigating circumstance when adjudicating illegal actions of this type. That said, the overall tendency to train people to minimise thinking for themselves because of the need to act on orders during combat can have some very undesirable knock-on effects, as Abu Ghraib was not a combat situation.

That said, the ONLY reason why one can condemn the chain of command in the Abu Ghraib situation is because the officers (who are generally supposed to be educated in these things; that's why they're officers) didn't act until they realised they were about to be exposed to the world at large.

This is the only reason, but it's absolutely sufficient to condemn everyone all the way to the top. The statements coming out of the civilian leadership, the attempts to legalise torture by Gonzalez, the various orders and statements posted in the workplace all condemn the chain of command all the way up to the top general in the theatre as well as his civilian overseers are just gravy to add to the real crime.

To everyone that knows about how these things are supposed to work in Western democracies and militaries, the Abu Ghraib scandal (along with Gitmo, and now with NSA surveillance) has given the US a massive black eye in the eyes of its Western allies, as well as with the rest of the world. It will take years to undo the damage, and might take generations if the following leadership after 2008 doesn't take steps to bring it all out into the open and start putting the current administration's feet to the fire after they leave office.

The whole situation just sucks.

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Post #246,412 by Silverlock 2/28/06 4:06:50 PM Reply	OK. Kneejerk emoticon misplaced again. I take it back. Beep didn't mealymouth this into an accusation that only the grunts were to blame. I do wonder how a troop in the field is supposed to understand that just because the Attorney General of the US says torture is legal for these prisoners, it doesn't mean it really is and he should just disobey orders because he disagrees with what his Commander in Chief's team is telling him. ----------------------------------------- NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice, and certainly without probable cause. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President. -Put it on all your emails
Post #246,415 by jake123 2/28/06 4:41:29 PM Reply	By thinking for themselves Hence my comment about educational problems in the service. There are good reasons to minimise thinking for oneself in a combat situation. Because of this, combat situations are often taken as a mitigating circumstance when adjudicating illegal actions of this type. That said, the overall tendency to train people to minimise thinking for themselves because of the need to act on orders during combat can have some very undesirable knock-on effects, as Abu Ghraib was not a combat situation. That said, the ONLY reason why one can condemn the chain of command in the Abu Ghraib situation is because the officers (who are generally supposed to be educated in these things; that's why they're officers) didn't act until they realised they were about to be exposed to the world at large. This is the only reason, but it's absolutely sufficient to condemn everyone all the way to the top. The statements coming out of the civilian leadership, the attempts to legalise torture by Gonzalez, the various orders and statements posted in the workplace all condemn the chain of command all the way up to the top general in the theatre as well as his civilian overseers are just gravy to add to the real crime. To everyone that knows about how these things are supposed to work in Western democracies and militaries, the Abu Ghraib scandal (along with Gitmo, and now with NSA surveillance) has given the US a massive black eye in the eyes of its Western allies, as well as with the rest of the world. It will take years to undo the damage, and might take generations if the following leadership after 2008 doesn't take steps to bring it all out into the open and start putting the current administration's feet to the fire after they leave office. The whole situation just sucks. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #246,474 by jb4 3/1/06 9:45:52 AM Reply	Try this one: j< Beep and I sorta "agreed" on this one... jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Post #246,556 by bepatient 3/2/06 1:12:05 AM Reply	Don't get used to it ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #246,585 by jb4 3/2/06 12:03:05 PM Reply	Dude, I know better'n that! And so do you... ;-) jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration

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