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New Re: Reply from Ashok Kumar, MP
14th February 2006


Dear Mr Whysall,


Thank you for you faxed letter of today's date regarding ID cards. Thank you also for your kind words.


I have to say that whilst I appreciate your sincerity and your arguments, I do have to say that I am basically in favour of ID cards and voted for the Government on this issue yesterday. They can prevent identity theft - a growing problem in this country. They can strengthen immigration and border controls, they can help misuse and fraud of public services and they can be a deterrent to organised crime.

As usual, the actual "how" is carefully glossed over in favour of a repeated assertion that ID cards will act as some kind of universal salve for the irritations of ID theft, illegal immigration, benefit fraud and crime. It's time to give us details. ID thieves will continue to operate, and the potential winnings will increase. Illegal immigrants don't have any identity details at the moment, so nothing would change; illegal immigrants with lots of money will simply spend more of it to get faked ID cards. Benefit fraudsters don't usually forge their identity, and neither do most criminals. Again, the criminal elite will simply obtain a forged or cloned or stolen identity card. What have we solved? Have we raised the bar for drink-fuelled violence, petty street crime, car theft or burglary? Do the crimes which involve identity manipulation even occur all that often? I feel that these questions must be answered in detailed but plain English. I suspect, however, that there will be no explanation or justification forthcoming, but rather repeated assertions that ID cards Will Deliver The Security Goods.
Look in particular at identity theft and the possible misuse of public services - to me the two key issues and two key benefits of any scheme.

OK.
Improvements in technology have made all our lives easier. Transactions usch as paying a bill which once took many minutes are now done in seconds over the telephone and the Internet. But these advances also bring risks. Criminals are recognising that our identities are just as valuable, if not more so, than our material possessions. A few items stolen from a rubbish bin such as utility bills and credit card statements can lead to huge financial losses as well as distress and inconvenience for victims in putting their records straight. On average victims can spend 60 hours restoring their records. An ID cards scheme - as the legislation says - is first and foremost for the benefit of citizens, giving them a means to protect their identity and to be able to prove it in a secure and straightforward manner.

And when the ID card is cloned, as it will be, because an identity will now be of much more value than before, how many hours will it take for the victim to recover their records? How will an ID card prove anything? Will I be required to present it when making a purchase? When applying for a new credit card? When opening a bank account?
In terms of misuse of public services I believe than an ID card scheme will give people assurance that those using public services are entitled to do so and are not abusing the scheme. It will also make access to public services for thise who are entitled to them more straightfoward and secure. Expectations about the quality of public services are increasing, yet citizens are inconvenienced by having to re-identify themselves to public services on different occasions. This also wastes public resources. The range of services that can be offered on-line can be limited without a definitive, highly secure and reliable means of proving identity.

This entire argument rests on the presupposition that people who defraud public services use false identities to do so. They don't. They use their own identities and simply lie. Unless, of course, there is evidence to the contrary. ID cards are not fraud prevention devices; they are citizen control devices.
Many people are, I admit, concerned about possible costs of such a scheme. The steps needed to improve security will incur costs. However the costs need to be weighed against the benefits that I have listed above. I suspect that some of the costs that have gained wide publicity are wide of the mark, and I do know that the Home Secretary is looking at this aspect of any scheme seriously. I feel there may well be a capped cost, but this is still open to debate.

Oh, a "capped cost". What you really mean is that the Home Secretary will attempt to shout the cost into submission. This is management by wishful thinking, and it doesn't work. It will cost whatever it costs, because the government will be unable to resist the PFI/PPP mantra and the private sector always gets its pound of flesh. At least, I suppose, no-one's (yet) mentioned the idea of implementing the database as a DBFO. This, too, raises further questions; will the National ID Register (or whatever it shall be called) be built on British technology, or that imported from abroad? Put simply, will the most important database in the country be constructed on software that we fundamentally cannot trust?
I hope that this is helpful and this answers your question. Put simply the only ones who should fear ID cards are those who may have reasons to be fearful. They should not bother the honest law abiding person.

This is, quite simply, a terrifying statement.

As you can see, I am neither a knee-jerk reactionary nor anywhere near convinced that ID cards represent anything other than a massive loss opportunity in both fiscal and political terms. The redefinition of the relationship between citizen and state that would occur (i.e. that the state would gain the right to define the citizen) is, to me, unacceptable and contrary to the prevailing political and constitutional spirit which goes toward defining what it means to be British.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New Very well stated.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Agreed...Very well stated. However...
...Peter missed the opportunity to show umbrage (or, at least, penumbrage) at the assertion that he, Peter, were anything other than a law-abiding citizen...who thought the ID cards were a load of bollocks. He shouldhave at least solicited an apology from His Royal Arrogance, MPee.
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New "Transparent Society" ... philosophical question
Suppose the ID card scheme, or really any possible identity verification scheme, could really work perfectly: Absolute certainty that a person is who they say they are; Complete elimination of identity theft and all crimes based on forged identity credentials. But this comes with the (unintended?) side-effect that everyone's movements can be tracked at all times.

Is this:
  • Good?
  • Bad?
  • Inevitable?
  • Preventable?

I haven't read [link|http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html|The Transparent Society] yet. But I believe one of the tenets is that it has to be two-way: If someone can track me, I should know they're tracking me. That's one control we're already short on IMO.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Exactly what he says.
One of the main points of "The Transparent Society" is that everybody DOES watch everybody else - and it is completely legal. As far as telling if somebody is watching you; well, in such a society, you just assume everybody is.
When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
New To me, that's not the same
It's one thing to know someone could be watching me. It's quite different to know they are watching. It's the whole problem with the DHS/FBI/etc wanting to get my library records without telling me. If you're going to be investigating me, I should know I'm being investigated.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Who watches the watchmen?
Any organized government is going to draw people who watch them right back - those people might use their time to notify those under watch that they are being watched. There's a lot fewer people that are professionally paid to watch others than there are people out there with spare time on their hands. Given the level of distrust of our government, I can imagine a lot of people taking it in their own hands to be watching the watchmen right back... Even going so far as to arrange groups that take rotating shifts and provide instant notifications.
When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
     ID Card bill passed in the Commons. - (pwhysall) - (40)
         Excellent letter. I hope he sees it and takes it to heart. -NT - (Another Scott)
         The saddest aspect is - (Ashton)
         Your question is rhetorical, but the answer is: - (jb4)
         Letter to Ashok Kumar, MP - (pwhysall) - (36)
             Any time to do the transcription? Also IEEE Spectrum. - (Another Scott)
             Reply from Ashok Kumar, MP - (pwhysall) - (31)
                 ...the FRACK? - (inthane-chan)
                 What a fscking MORON! - (jb4) - (16)
                     He's not a moron, that's the problem. - (pwhysall) - (15)
                         OK, let me rephrase that, then... - (jb4) - (14)
                             That's bollocks, too. - (pwhysall) - (13)
                                 Prolly doesn't get some of the finer points of parliamentary - (jake123) - (1)
                                     Thanks for the primer on the finer points of ... - (jb4)
                                 He's a good MP... - (jb4) - (10)
                                     You're all excitable, aren't you? - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                         Heheh. - (imric)
                                         Not a moron. Just another whore. Same as ours. - (hnick) - (3)
                                             To answer your question ... - (drewk) - (1)
                                                 Nah... Not enough room. - (hnick)
                                             On second thought... - (hnick)
                                         Now you're just being thick - (jb4) - (3)
                                             Re: Now you're just being thick - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                 Oh, did you get your widdy biddy fewings hurt? - (jb4) - (1)
                                                     Not really. - (pwhysall)
                 In other words, he's not open to contrary evidence. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                     I've already had a really good fume about this. -NT - (pwhysall) - (4)
                         I'd smack him upside the haid (verbally, of course)... - (jb4) - (3)
                             I'm going to compose a measured response. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                 You must admit, though, it would be rather cathartic. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                     Write it, but don't mail it. - (jbrabeck)
                 Re: Reply from Ashok Kumar, MP - (pwhysall) - (6)
                     Very well stated. -NT - (jbrabeck) - (5)
                         Agreed...Very well stated. However... - (jb4) - (4)
                             "Transparent Society" ... philosophical question - (drewk) - (3)
                                 Exactly what he says. - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                     To me, that's not the same - (drewk) - (1)
                                         Who watches the watchmen? - (inthane-chan)
             Send the moron this - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 Link doesn't work -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                     'Cellphone could crack RFID tags, says cryptographer' - (Ashton)

Keep a mild groove on.
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