Post #243,478
2/5/06 10:44:50 AM
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Iran nuclear deal sells out Israel
[link|http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1141|http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1141]
2. While the Vienna decision looks like a victory for Western diplomacy, Iran\ufffds leaders have lost no time in seizing on it as a license to go full throttle ahead with their illicit uranium enrichment, free of UN spot inspections. Furthermore, they have been given added leverage: before halting their own program, they can demand that the entire Middle East be disarmed - first and foremost Israel.
3. The reference to weapons of mass destruction and means of delivery would also require Israel to give up its long-range missiles.
Since Israel will will never give them up, it essentially paves the way for a mid-east nuclear arms race.
Tell me, which countries in that region would YOU trust with nuclear arms?
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Post #243,479
2/5/06 11:09:48 AM
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I don't think so.
I don't think the text says anything as strong as the DEBKA story concludes. [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/04_02_06iranres.pdf|IAEA Report to UN] (3 page .pdf): (m) Recognising that a solution to the Iranian issue would contribute to global nonproliferation efforts and to realising the objective of a Middle East free of weapons of mass destruction, including their means of delivery, Recognizing is much weaker than a lot of the other underlined words in the document (recalling, reaffirming, etc.). It expresses the view of the IAEA that the view is widely held. It's basically a fig leaf to try to get more countries on board. It is not a demand that the "Middle East" (something that isn't defined here) become free of nuclear WMD while Iran's violations are addressed. Yes, Iran and its allies will sieze the language as a justification. But it's not going to affect what the UN does. At least it shouldn't... My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #243,481
2/5/06 11:28:28 AM
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Hmm. Speaking of "seize"
9. Decides to remain seized of the matter.
WTF?
[link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=seized|http://dictionary.re...m/search?q=seized]
Soemthing tells me this is a hopeful usage of this word.
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Post #244,276
2/11/06 6:58:42 PM
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I think it's an antique legal usage
Means "to be involved", as in "to seize a judje to a case". Can't find a linky, though.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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Post #243,509
2/5/06 5:05:57 PM
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Re: Iran nuclear deal sells out Israel
Since Israel will will never give them up, it essentially paves the way for a mid-east nuclear arms race.
Tell me, which countries in that region would YOU trust with nuclear arms? Look at it from Iran's point of view. Do you think Iran is going to accept a situation where Isreal and only Isreal is allowed enough military power to ensure their saftey? Heck, in Iran's posistion I would bet that many of their military planners are already convinced that war with the US is inevitable and that nuclear weapons are the only way to prevent it from happening. Given what happened in Iraq, I doubt that many of them would consider comming clean as an alternative. Jay
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Post #243,514
2/5/06 5:54:27 PM
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It was the central lesson offered by the Iraq/N. Korea
situations... if you get them, they'll leave you alone, and if you don't, you'll get invaded.
Every country that has bones to pick with the States has a strong motivation to go nuclear now.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #243,517
2/5/06 8:49:09 PM
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Israel's a convenient misdirection for the mullahs. (Long)
At least if you believe [link|#|this] Master's thesis (105 page .pdf) by Mayer of the Naval Postgraduate School. I haven't read the whole thing, but it has an interesting discussion at the beginning: This thesis addresses the interests that compel the Islamic Republic of Iran to pursue nuclear weapons. To support the broader investigation, this thesis looks at three perspectives of Iran\ufffds nuclear program, each addressing a specific level of analysis. First, I examine Iran\ufffds desired military doctrine based on propositions predicted by political realism. Second, I look at the individuals that perpetuate Iran\ufffds countervailing nuclear myths, one idealizing nuclear security, and the other nuclear insecurity. Third, I analyze Iran\ufffds bureaucratic inertia in pursuing nuclear weapons and the parochial self-interests that now dominate any discussion of whether to continue. In each analysis, I identify policy measures that target the causal motivations at that level. My motivation for examining these three levels lies in George Perkovich\ufffds observation that, \ufffdfor all its efforts to staunch flows of nuclear technology, materiel, and know-how into Iran, the U.S. government never has publicly and objectively assessed Iranian leaders\ufffd motivations for seeking nuclear weapons and what the U.S. and others could do to remove those motivations.\ufffd4
The main political relationship I see in Iran\ufffds program follows this logic: Balance of power reasoning was the impetus for Iran\ufffds nuclear weapons program. Nuclear myth makers convinced the ruling mullahs of the nuclear solution to that threat. Bureaucratic inertia is keeping the program alive despite changes in Iran\ufffds strategic landscape.
[...]
B. EVOLUTION OF IRAN\ufffdS NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM 1. The Shah\ufffds Program
Iran\ufffds civilian nuclear energy program began while Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was still in power, buying a five-megawatt research reactor from the United States in 1967. Having been one of the first to sign and ratify the NPT in 1970, the shah\ufffds nuclear energy program was supported by several Western powers. The United States, France, and West Germany all provided Iran with reactors and technical training.10 The shah\ufffds \ufffdmotives were a fusion of Iranian national ambition and concern for the direction of the neighborhood.\ufffd11 Scholars assume the shah also directed a parallel weapons program, using the openly declared civil nuclear power program as a springboard for developing weapons grade fuel and as a cover to develop the technical know-how for weapons design and manufacturing, which ended upon his overthrow in 1979. 12 Because the United States wanted the shah to rise to the role of Gulf protectorate, U.S. leaders looked the other way on Iran\ufffds early nuclear foray.
2. Rebirth after the Iran-Iraq War
After Ayatollah Khomeini\ufffds ascendance, Iran\ufffds nuclear program lay dormant until 1984, when the Islamic Republic was embroiled in its bitter war with Iraq.13 Having sustained fearsome losses, many from Iraq\ufffds use of chemical weapons (which was largely ignored by the international community), the Iranian regime was forced to find a balancing capability and nuclear (along with chemical and later, biological) weapons, appeared to be that balance.14 Because of the U.S.-led arms embargo (as a result of the revolution\ufffds takeover of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran), Iran felt isolated from the international community while Iraq enjoyed economic and military aid from Europe and the Soviet Union. According to Geoffrey Kemp, \ufffdthese memories continue to generate bitterness among Iranians\ufffd and are prime motivators in the regime\ufffds \ufffdstrong anticolonialist nationalism\ufffd as it strives for self-sufficiency in every respect, including its nuclear program.15
In 1989, Iran announced it had discovered uranium ore deposits near Saghand, and it intended to begin mining operations in 1990, followed by enrichment facility construction by 1994. In 1992, Russia announced it had signed an agreement with Iran to assist in construction of a light-water reactor in Bushehr, on the southwest coast as well as a bilateral agreement to provide nuclear fuel support.16 The international community accepted this progression of events, albeit with suspicion, based on Iran\ufffds appearance of conforming to IAEA protocols, although the United States is still pressuring Russia to abandon its assistance to the Islamic Republic.
If the light-water reactor was the limit of the Iranian program, then it may be true that Iran is only developing a nuclear power capability. The complications of reprocessing spent fuel from a light-water reactor make it unlikely that Iran would use upgraded uranium from such a process to develop nuclear weapons. In order to extract the material, the reactor must be shut down, which would be immediately noticed by IAEA and U.S. monitoring.17 It would not make sense to risk such an easy discovery for such a small yield. But the United States and others believe Iran has been pursuing nuclear weapons all along.
3. Revelations
After Washington received a tip from an Iranian opposition group about nuclear activities unknown to the United States and the IAEA, the United States released satellite photos showing two additional nuclear sites at Natanz and Arak.18 In February 2003, Iran confirmed it was building a heavy-water reactor at Arak and a uranium enrichment plant at Natanz. The disclosure also admitted Iran had imported undeclared quantities of processed uranium from China in 1992, which would put it in violation of the terms of the NPT.19 Also in February, Iranian President Khatami publicly declared that these facilities were designed to allow Iran to produce its own nuclear fuel. The complexity of the Iranian program suggests an advanced technological commitment and capability beyond civil power requirements.
The addition of a gas centrifuge enrichment plant of the size seen at Natanz plus a heavy-water reactor casts reasonable doubt on the intentions of the Iranian program. Both capabilities can produce more nuclear fuel than one commercial light-water reactor would need. IAEA environmental analysis of these centrifuges revealed the presence of enriched uranium even though Iran had claimed it had only tested the equipment with
inert gases.20 And here lies a troubling discontinuity: Iran first claimed the centrifuges were built indigenously, but then claimed the high-grade uranium contamination came from an unnamed country from which they purchased the equipment. Either Iran was upgrading uranium it claimed it didn\ufffdt have with indigenous centrifuge equipment, or, it was transferring used, undeclared nuclear technology it claimed was indigenous. With the missile technology it has received from North Korea and China, the nuclear weapons production assistance Iran appears to be getting from Pakistan (suspected supplier of the gas centrifuges) portends a nuclear weapons threat to Israel and other U.S. interests in the region within two to four years.21 This excerpt, if you accept the logic, shows that US policy on whether Iran needs power reactors has depended on who was in power. It also shows that Israel has little or nothing to do with Iran's desire. Mayer points, among other recommendations, to the need for a regional security arrangement that would include Iran and would obviate the need for nuclear weapons. That certainly seems to be worth considering. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #243,513
2/5/06 5:53:17 PM
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Query....didn't Israel
fire on a US ship (an act of war)?
And now you're saying we should trust Israel?
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Post #243,516
2/5/06 7:48:48 PM
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You mean USS Liberty?
[link|http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html|http://www.lewrockwe...g/margolis12.html]
Of course, this link would like to use that incident to show that Israel caused every other Arab attack.
[link|http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html|http://www.whatreall...m/ussliberty.html]
This link, on the other hand, attempts to refute it:
[link|http://www.adl.org/Israel/uss.asp|http://www.adl.org/Israel/uss.asp]
Of course, look who published it.
Umm - with my limited reading, I'll accept the strong probability they knew. Why they did it? Dunno.
The ADL link has some pretty convincing reasons why the various motivations espoused by the conspiricy guys are probably wrong, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it, just that we haven't figured out why.
I'd say they were in the middle of it, some guys knew it, other guys did not, and it either wasn't sanctioned at the highest levels or they thought better of it.
And then went "oops, never mind".
Yeah, I'd still trust them with nukes more than their neighbors. They don't have a goal of destroying us, a large portion of their neighbors do.
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Post #243,562
2/6/06 3:27:38 AM
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The most likely reason that I've seen put forward was...
that the USS Liberty had documented the fact that Israel was massacuring Egyptian prisoners of war.
I think this was suggested somewhere on [link|http://www.ussliberty.org/|http://www.ussliberty.org/] but I am not energetic enough to search for it right now.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #243,533
2/5/06 11:03:29 PM
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not really, Iran will refuse to comply, Israel shrugs
"what nukes?" and Iran can buy readymade from our friend and ally Pakistan. I am not as afraid of the Persian Fuckwits as much as I am afraid of the Arab Fuckwits. The Arab Fuckwits gave us every terrorist attack personally so far. The Iranian Fuckwits attack Israel thru shiite proxies but no direct attacks against us. Now if it looked like Israel might be close to being wiped I would jump a plane, get there and help but the threat to them remains arab, not persian or shiite.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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