I don't think its silly or excessive, all things considered

Post #239,431 by Ashton 12/25/05 9:39:31 PM Reply	I don't think its silly or excessive, all things considered - as others have outlined. And I'd start with the Obvious too: the Fact that mosques are clearly no Prohibited Zones for warmaking, under present ample evidence. SO look there First == it's easy to find. Then: keep looking, regularly - the techno is getting cheaper and better than a mere Geiger counter - you'd like to ID the energy spectrum, once you'd found a response, etc. You need to be intimately -in bones- acquainted with: I = I₀E^kt Whilst this matter of monitoring is ~akin to the Narcs cruising about with IR detectors, looking for pot-growing warm basements (and, same groups getting Utilities to report suspiciously high power usage in residences, etc.) -- this practice remains, apparently, legal-ish in many US States, last time I looked. Yes, bucket/worms issues are ever raised, particularly with neofascists at the helm. But even if the above examples were Not legalish: I submit that the non-invasive detection of unusual amounts of radiation anywhere: is only a Good Thing. Any such found, might well be unknown to someone whose foundation, retaining-wall contained a bunch of pretty orange-yellow Carnotite ore, black pitchblende, etc. (True) stories exist of say, idiots opening once-stolen casks full of Co⁶⁰ - parts of decommissioned med. instruments, and spreading around the little 'beads' etc. Ignorance Kills. (It did, in that case.) I note also a recent story of a yahoo who wishes to purchase a decommissioned cyclotron from a Univ - for cost of hauling it away - and desires to reassemble it and power it: in basement of a suburban house.. Look up sometime, what it is that a Health Physicist needs to know: a few Googles will Not suffice to assess such matters - it will only serve to demonstrate why You cannot guesstimate much, on the subject. Nope, there's just too-Much basic Ignorance all around in Murica (I suspect not much better in Euro) about what any "radiation" is, and about how little / much? one can learn about a source .. non-invasively, and from afar. Perhaps my periodic issues of Bulletin of the At. Scientists serve to remind me regularly, but I've known since childhood: that both US and USSR have oodles of massive weapons remaining on Ready Alert, Today, long after there is any non-psychiatric 'need' for these Damocles swords. But an amaturish local dirty weapon is no longer a What-if? so much as a palpable goal of the sorts of deranged religio-fanatics which the planet cheerfully, mindlessly tolerates, even nurtures.. callin such behaviour 'normal' or something. In any event, I possess the chops to have an opinion in a field which was my hobby in HS - and later on, career. 'Radiation' gets complex fast, and diagnosis indeed requires some equipment and knowledge of what can be inferred, before more sophi$ticated equipment is demanded. Maybe immediately. (Can't spend $100K for every group.) Lastly, a dirty bomb would not need the proper functioning of even a simple gun-type fissionable device; shielding many Curies of spent reactor fuel is about MASSIVE (massively heavy) such shielding. Neither Al-Q nor Super-God-Man can stealthily stack 30 tonne blocks, etc. I agree with others' asssessments here - the drones will be seen as expendable - nothing tricky to assemble; just eat the 500+ Rads/hr exposure. One can manage that for ~an hour before your cells turn to jello. Send in 2 at a time till they throw up, then a bit longer; repeat, etc. ie Let's monitor regularly and widely. There is pervasive dumbth, ennui even re the accidental sorts (which monitors might well discover too, depending..) - and the prospect today of intentional massive contamination makes this a No Brainer. (Without cataloguing your pron collection.) My 500 Rads (==One MLD: mean lethal dose. Half will die at ~500 total.)
Post #239,432 by imqwerky 12/25/05 10:09:57 PM Reply	I agree with you, Ashton Although I think it is sad that we live in times like these. I don't live far from a mosque and hate to think that the majority of good people who worship there are being exposed to harmful substances by the few people who are in cahoots with the radicals. There's even a school there and I would hate to think that they are storing hazardous materials near young children. I suppose a drive-by sweep with a Geiger counter in no more invasive than it has to be considering the intelligence that requires its use. If there were the slightest chance that my church would be harboring such activities, I wouldn't be offended by such a sweep. Trying to put the shoe on the other foot, Amy "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #239,433 by Another Scott 12/25/05 11:43:56 PM Reply	Understood. You present a good case. But... There are lots of hazardous substances that can cause lots of damage to lots of people. Dirty bombs are scarier, but probably wouldn't cause more real-life damage than a chemical attack (c.f. the Tokyo subway [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway\|attack]). How can I say such a thing? Well, consider [link\|http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/dirty-bomb.cfm\|this] article by the CDI; though as a counterpoint one should also consider [link\|http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm\|this] one by the FAS. My concern isn't the snooping so much - I agree that non-invasive searches are better for sweeping large areas than, say, mandatory door-to-door searches. My concern is that no warrant was requested. At some point, IMO, if you're on my land then you should need my permission to conduct sampling of my property. If you don't have my permission, then you should be forced to demonstrate to a judge that you need to be legally permitted to do the sampling. I worry about the precedent this sets. If this is permitted, why not have the FBI drive up and down our streets with supercomputers and \ufffdbersensitive microphones and pentabyte disk-arrays, recording every sound for subsequent analysis and indefinite storage. Well, it's out there in public, so it's fair game - right? It looks like Bobby Jones down the street is a member of the NRA and likes to play FPS games - our software profiling indicates he might be training to be an extremist. Maybe we should have a record of what he does at home for the next 10 years - just in case... :-( I'm sorry - I don't buy it. Radioactive materials don't grow on trees. Sources of large enough quantities of radioactive materials to be useful in a bomb are well know and are (or should be!) carefully controlled. (E.g Al-qaeda isn't going to go to Home Depot and buy 100,000 smoke alarms to make their bomb.) The transportation infrastructure could be monitored to see if radioactive materials are moving through it. Etc. Obviously, contacts with known extremists and terrorist groups should be carefully monitored (within the law). If law enforcement has some probable cause, or some legitimate reason to investigate a building or an area, then let them get a warrant. If they want a "clean baseline" to be able to quickly spot changes in an area, then that may be fine too. But unless there was more reason to investigate the mosques and homes of Muslims than was presented in the USN&WR report (and I didn't notice much of any), then they should have been forced to get a warrant to do the sampling on private property. As you point out, recent court decisions may have reduced the need for law enforcement to get such warrants. If so, I think that's a bad trend. Bottom line: A court should act as a civil protection to prevent directed fishing expeditions that don't meet a reasonable standard of necessity or probable cause. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,437 by boxley 12/25/05 11:59:52 PM Reply	you are seriously confused look at your local zoning and zoning inspector laws, in Anchorage Alaska a zoning inspector can enter your fenced yard to inspect for zoning violations, one of the primary violations is hazmat storage. In most municipalities a fire, electrical, plumbing inspector, utility workers can go onto your land and visually inspect items such a gas line, illegal electrical hookups and suspicious containers. Even as far back as 1973 I worked as a gas leak inspector accross the South. It involved sensing equipment that would check for leaking gas parts. I would walk legally into your yard up to the meter and demand entry in case I needed to trace inside, usually with a large cop standing next to me. City State and Federal law supported same. Now your local zonong might not mention specifically fuckwits building a dirty bomb, but any laws like "storage of unlicenced vehicles not allowed" offers legal entry to your property for zoning inspectors who can carry rad meters while they are there and do it legally. Like Peter earlier said, a lot of legal crap goes on that I hate, zoning enforcement being one of them, but it is a legal practice. Also, a mosque parking lot is a public place allowing what is called a "licensee" someone who has no real business there but may tootle around doing their own business, That is settled law.Legal? Absolutely, needful? as needful as it is to check the expiration date of the plates on my van backed against the garage door. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,438 by Another Scott 12/26/05 12:45:07 AM Reply	Fair enough. Thanks.
Post #239,441 by Simon_Jester 12/26/05 10:23:09 AM Reply	Box is right... between easements and inspections for public safety; there's nothing wrong with what the Feds have done. The problem is their basic assumption. The Feds are concentrating on nuclear materials (geiger counters and the like). A fast review of the attacks on the US do NOT show nuclear materials being used (perhaps because the Feds have done a good job). From Oklahoma to 9/11, basic everyday materials can do a lot more damage than most people realize.
Post #239,463 by Ashton 12/26/05 6:39:37 PM Reply	Let's not get lost in triage of 'threats' here - As a long-time $supporter of CDI (have mentioned visiting them in DC) - I find their material among the most thoughtful, decently edited and - generally 'wise' .. around. Seeing their operation 'live' - priceless. I regret that their regular half-hours, years ago even on local bucolic PBS station .. have declined in recent years. Not enough $$, or mass Interest, I expect. Not enough car chases. :-/ That said, the CDI report is entirely logical and in accord with my experience (which helps me, if not you.) And BTW, a "20-25% increase over background" - via -not cosmic rays- but mobile particulate matter may Not be so easily lumped-together as a simple "%increase". This especially re long-term consequences, genetic and other. Another thread, that.. and not a simple one. And yes, the Psychological aspects (especially in primitive, superstitious, uninformed cultures like ours) - may indeed trump the physical, $$$ aspects of such an Event. As pointed out by CDI - Nightmarish though it may be, the dirty bomb scenario is thus one that must be prepared for, albeit one wherein the psychological dangers appear greater than the physical. That al Qaeda appears to have made more inroads into the production of such a device than was previously believed to be the case heightens such dangers even further. After all, look how effective have been the Rove/G\ufffdbbels propaganda barrages: Words-alone! mere fear-mongering sans Substance. THAT is "where we live"... Point: not a huge investment is needed, to continue regular background checks. Nor are the perps flawless in their strategy, tactics execution - simply because They Were, on that one day. A bonus (whatever the actual physiological risk of some actual planned event) -- is, a cheap sensor, whose warning might well lead to a rarity: actually catching some sickos. You Watch before you Pounce. We can afford to do this. All the other stuff will always be debatable, legitimate arguments re priorities, triage shall occur, etc. Few of these options shall achieve consensus -- I think that this one should, if there's a single Authority Figure left with a sense of Scale and Relativity\ufffd (A large IF, sadly.) (IMO, consequences of worldwide general-ignorance re isotopes and their consequences, just may prove as instrumental in the replacement of our ditzy species -??- as any of the too-numerous other catalysts on our various lists. Unfortunately, there can be no simple, compelling 'explanation for the masses' of the manifold consequences of our proliferation of these substances.) One can only watch, shake head - and make best use of the time, by Living. Worrying about lemming-like behaviour in one's species can only grow hairy warts on neurons; possibly lead to burkha purchases in the febrile? or the championing of Windoze. :-) moi
Post #239,439 by pwhysall 12/26/05 12:48:39 AM Reply	It's both, and here's why I think so. All this kind of bollocks does is send a message to The Terrorists: "Don't keep your radioactive shit in mosques, stash it in a church instead" Unwarranted monitoring of mosques today, unwarranted phone tapping tomorrow. Unwarranted search and seizure next week. Today the Muslims, tomorrow the atheists. Monitor at ports. Monitor on roads. Monitor at airports. Do it legally. Do it openly. This sneaky "yeah, damn that pesky Constitution" bollocks is getting on my tits. It's harder work being principled, but that's no reason not to be. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,460 by Ashton 12/26/05 5:43:30 PM Reply	If you'll note - - We can always try for simple, sans simplistic (or wishful) - can't we? Believing this 'issue' too important to get drowned in generalities of the day, I intentionally omitted the very many means whereby fuckwits like our current ruling junta -- regularly elide 'intents of laws' in their march for that homogenization-of-mindset -- that which precedes the methodical militarization of the whole place. We've done that one, repeatedly. Nobody here's forgotten, I trust. Nor did I attempt to assign %relative-risk of radioactive VS the n-thousand other means by which deranged humanoids can create chaos in a massively techno-dependent ~~house-of-cards~~ modern, excessively-rich, consumer-besotted environment. cf. The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl Popper. What I said was: it is relatively easy to make at least coarse sweeps of an entire town - simply for the purpose of early-detection of any radiation source that is clearly well beyond natural [1]background. I said, "We Should Do This". (I Don't Care if.. 'mosques' are the first place inspected /detected-from-afar; get on to the remaining 99.9% too. Methodically. For the duration.. of all mob madness. Hey, that might be longer than 'Iraq' - such as We Are. This genie has been out of the bottle since 1939 and 'we' haven't gotten any smarter, or even mature. Let alone informed.) I have experience/lore of what happens with radiation from pervasive low-levels to the agonizing deaths of high-levels. I aver that my concern is neither exaggerated nor misplaced, (nor 'sentimental'.) Why would I? - a one manifestly anti- all the oft-mentioned excesses of Bestial Authority - renege in This Case. D'oh! think cataclysms: when you multiply exceeding-small probabilities X exceeding-dire consequences (like ~towns built atop lava channels! of volcanoes) - a different math must be done. So, ultimately this matter, and Now, devolves to classic forensics - MOM: Means, opportunity and motive. We are fully aware of motives of the religio-mad seppuku-intent. Every putative Open Society is rife with opportunities for crashing its fragile, intricately interdependent systems. Some with no reboot, in a generation or so. THAT's why "we monitor" even for the highly improbable: because it is no longer Impossible, and we Know that there are rapturin-out folks East & West, those besotted with delusions of Certainty (I'm Right/They're Wrong): those who care not an iota re the trashing of the planet -- if'n they get their virgins / and-or angel-wings, earlier / and get to enjoy watching* the heretics Burn. (For some, clearly the schadenfreude is even more delicious than the virgins - sitting next to the Imagined anthro-Bearded One and watching the perps fry: that's the ticket! to Bliss. Roller Ball for miniscule-brain washed twits. The Few: drawn from the millions with lesser gumption to Fix Things, terminally.) Fortunately (for us) as Scott has suggested: the means* for acquiring, accumulating kiloCuries of some spent fuel (short of a core dump like Chernobyl) are not so simple. In the US, thus far. Elsewhere ..?.. then it becomes a matter of transport. Wanna bet we have that Covered 100.0% ? maybe by Michael Brown's housekeeper.. Carrion Avge. Kenwood background, over months: 14.7 cpm. YMMV [1] Background: which varies greatly with altitude, local geology, etc. Ever turn on your pocket Geiger counter in an airliner? I have.. [with the audio off, lest the uninformed panic.] Physics Works: instead of 10-20 cosmic ray counts/minute - think 500-700. (Long-time aircrews surely suffer enhanced probabilities of Bad Things, especially those with weaker immune systems. We have little hard data on prolonged lo-level exposure; have lots of cant re "threshhold" or None. Etc.)
Post #239,591 by jb4 12/27/05 5:43:20 PM Reply	Uhh, Peter... ..the unauthorized phone tapping happened the day before yesterday, not tomorrow as you have it on your schedule. Please try to keep up. :-0 jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT

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