Not really unreasonable.

Post #239,299 by hnick 12/24/05 8:32:19 AM Reply	Not really unreasonable. A drive by with a Geiger counter is not particularly invasive. Islamic whackadoos have a tendency to want to blow shit up as much as W does. If a mosque or residence can make the box beep, it's probably a good idea to know about it. Tapping phones without warrant and secret searches are invasive and are illegal. This doesn't seem, it itself, like a terrible idea. The only problem I see, is that it can be used as justification for more invasive searches that ARE illegal.
Post #239,303 by pwhysall 12/24/05 10:08:11 AM Reply	Re: Not really unreasonable. A drive by of your house with a parabolic microphone isn't really invasive, either. They were "just passing" and the recorder "just happened" to be on and you "just happened" to be talking about bombs. It's surveillance, and whether you're listening to my farts or my rad count, it's not on. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,308 by boxley 12/24/05 10:43:04 AM Reply	CCTV on every corner, thats reasonable? but a driveby rad count isnt? drink much? :-) thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #239,309 by pwhysall 12/24/05 10:49:00 AM Reply	That's not an argument. Bill, lemme clue you in. I don't agree with everything the government of my country does, and whether it does something reprehensible or not (plenty, as it turns out, just like every single government on the planet, to a greater or lesser degree) doesn't actually have any bearing whatsofuckingever on whether THIS particular issue is reprehensible. I know you're just trying to be funny, but a vital component of that funniness is that for it to BE funny, I would actually have to have some real element of control over the thing you're trying to ping me about. And now you've got a rise out of me. I guess you win! Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,312 by hnick 12/24/05 11:01:02 AM Reply	I believe you're wrong,. A drive by of my house with a parabolic mike IS invasive. Somebody is recording content and making judgements based on my conversation. This is considerably different from having a significantly higher background radiation than normal. There is no analysis there. If you make the box beep, something is wrong. If not, continue driving. Dirty bombs are a current credible threat. Snooping on conversations for key words is not on, as you would have it. Checking background radiation, I think is reasonable. It is fairly boolean, fairly hard to misinterpret, and having a large quantity of radioactive isotopes is something that could reasonably warrant an explanation. You're going to disagree, and that's freedom for you.
Post #239,314 by pwhysall 12/24/05 11:12:45 AM Reply	Well, if you have nothing to hide... ...then you have nothing to fear, I expect. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,315 by hnick 12/24/05 11:24:21 AM Reply	hee hee First they came for those with the home made neutron bombs... ummm, I don't think that's going to work... As I said in response to Scott's post, I don't think it shoud be used as a fishing probe. If they are sweeping the city, then good on 'em. If there is reason to believe there is some entity trying to implement a dirty bomb, it would be good if they looked for it. If they want specific people, they have to follow the rules. I'm done now. This is only fun if the opponent is trying...
Post #239,316 by pwhysall 12/24/05 11:28:24 AM Reply	To clarify The original story explicitly reports that mosques and private addresses are being checked. That's not maintaining the security of the Homeland, that's harassment of a minority. Further, you and I have no idea whatsoever what level of radiation would be considered significant. What about the microwave oven in the kitchen? What about the contaminated dude who used to work at the nuclear plant? What about that old guy who's still got a watch from the 30s with radium on it? What about the mosque that's on top of a (natural) radioactive iodine source? I just do not trust the government nor their motives in this case, and, indeed, in all cases where some level of increased observation and surveillance of the general populace is proposed or, in this case, carried out. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,318 by Another Scott 12/24/05 12:17:34 PM Reply	Nit: All "radiation" isn't alike. Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. Further, you and I have no idea whatsoever what level of radiation would be considered significant. What about the microwave oven in the kitchen? The "bad" radiation from radioactive materials is what's known as "[link\|http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/ionizing.html\|ionizing radiation]". High energy particles leave the radioactive material and bang into other things, like peoples' organs, give up energy, ionize atoms in the target, and thereby cause damage to the tissue. Radiation from microwave ovens is just radio waves (or light). It's intense and is of a frequency (2.45 GHz) that can interact with tissue. But it's not ionizing radiation. (Very high energy photons - X-rays and gamma-rays - can act as ionizing radiation, but that's not what we're talking about here. Microwave ovens don't produce X-rays.) The USN&WR [link\|http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/nest/051222nest.htm\|story] says: But officials familiar with the FBI/NEST program say the radiation sensors are different and are only sampling the surrounding air. "This kind of program only detects particles in the air, it's non directional," says one knowledgeable official. "It's not a whole lot different from smelling marijuana." They're looking for particles, not radio waves. It's probably similar technology to what was used to detect fallout from nuclear bomb tests. Presumably, Homer from the nuclear plant would give off things if he was contaminated, but presumably they (and the plant operator) already watch such people very carefully as it is. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,319 by pwhysall 12/24/05 12:24:51 PM Reply	I consider myself hejumacated, thanks I did chemistry in my callow youth. Further point, though. So you detect ionising radiation; don't you rather fancy that the Bad Guys have figured this out, and by the time a site goes "hot", the Bad Guys will have already set in motion The Bad Thing? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,320 by Another Scott 12/24/05 12:36:46 PM Reply	Could be. The idea is probably to detect the bad materials and remove them before they have a chance to set their nefarious plan into action. How one does that without turning the country into a gulag is left as an exercise for the reader. Fortunately, many of the people who are attempting to do these bad things aren't too bright. Witness the 2nd round of [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_July_2005_London_bombings\|bus bombings] in the UK. (I hope that JCdM is the last person to die under such circumstances.) Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,321 by pwhysall 12/24/05 12:50:00 PM Reply	Re: Could be. Scarily, though, some of them are very bright indeed. Look at the well-planned and well-executed attacks on 11th September, 2001. My personal sense is that if you're getting clicks on the geiger counter whilst parked up outside a mosque in, say, Denver, you're too late. I can't imagine that al Qaeda would commit anything less than its best agents to an attack involving such hard-to-obtain and difficult-to-handle material. A worrying prospect. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,326 by broomberg 12/24/05 1:32:17 PM Reply	Few cooks, many busboys There are not that many people who can cleanly handle dangerous substances. For all we know, they have multiple tiers of people since they are running multiple projects, and they might have cell level isolation which keeps the really smart people far away from the ground operation. Remember, the ground people are wackos, waiting to die for their cause, so they can hit on the grape wielding virgins. These are STUPID people. They make a decent tools for the smart guys, in certain circumstances, but are not to be trusted in anything too complex. When shipping these substances, they probably are not in any condition to be part of the final bomb since the method of shipping will probably include some type of disguise. Which means some type of assembly required before usage. The shielding and cleanroom handling equipment is to protect the handlers. But the designers of this stuff do not care about the handlers. They are disposable. So the containers need to be well shielded during shipment, so people don't pick up on any leaking radiation. But when they get to the point of final assembly, it is unlikely they will have lab level radiation handling equipment. Who give a rat's ass if the final assemblers are hit with a shot of radiation that will cause cancer in 6 months? They expect to be dead in a week anyway. All of which ups the chance for a handling fuckup pretty dramatically. So this particular method of scanning for this particular type of radiation seems to be the best combination of non-intrusive and non-fishing expedition.
Post #239,384 by Simon_Jester 12/25/05 9:57:54 AM Reply	I think that's a dangerous assumption... Remember, the ground people are wackos, waiting to die for their cause, so they can hit on the grape wielding virgins. These are STUPID people. They make a decent tools for the smart guys, in certain circumstances, but are not to be trusted in anything too complex. I agree that stupid people (shoe-bomber) are easy to get and can't be trusted with anything too complex. However, 9/11 showed that there are very smart, dedicated people out there with a definite agenda...and that they are willing to sacrifice themselves to meet their objective. The good news is that, the supply of such people is pretty limited and sucicide attacks tend to use up their own numbers. :-)
Post #239,385 by broomberg 12/25/05 10:11:23 AM Reply	Infinite supply of stupid people Keep them isolated in their own schools. No end to the supply.
Post #239,589 by jb4 12/27/05 5:35:56 PM Reply	You mean, in Kansas? jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #239,386 by boxley 12/25/05 11:10:16 AM Reply	popoular example, palestinians you never see leaders of the militant terror orgs strapping a bomb onto one of their own kids, always someone socially marginalized from a totally indoctrinated populace. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #239,322 by ben_tilly 12/24/05 12:58:17 PM Reply	I would bet that... A level of radiation significant enough to draw official attention would also be significant enough that the people in that building would not want to be accidentally exposed to it. Certainly if the feds came to my house, pointed out that my radiation levels were high and then discovered that (like about 1-3% of US houses) I had a high enough background level of radioactive materials to constitute a significant risk of cancer, I'd personally appreciate it. I'm with Hugh. Checking the radiation level of my house isn't going to compromise any personal information about me. I object to it less than, say, taking a picture of my house using a satellite. (Which pictures are commonly used by municipal governments to spot people who have been doing unauthorized construction and aren't paying taxes on their new amenities.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,392 by Arkadiy 12/25/05 12:39:46 PM Reply	It's not "harrasment" It's a minimally-invasive procedure to detect a minority within a minority. Those bastards are clearly giving out their intentions and their address: intentions are to blow infidels up and the address is wherever true (in their sense) Muslims live. I'd consider our Govt amiss if they did not act on such a clear warning - within the law. You Brits forgot what the hell "harrasment" means. "You don't have to fight a Jew, you know... Just send a file of Marines to hyde his unbelieving skin and ram a piece of bacon down his throat." That's harrasment. Look at a Musim in a wrong way, and he (never she) cries harrasment. Sometines I feel like those sensitive souls need to be reminded what the hell harrasment is. And, if their crasies keep on behaving like they do, the rest of Muslims will eventually learn it the hard way. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #239,400 by pwhysall 12/25/05 3:31:26 PM Reply	Slippery slopes are, so, well, slippery, aren't they? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,467 by Arkadiy 12/26/05 8:02:56 PM Reply	We're all on that slope together If you refuse to admit it, you don't get any better grip. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #239,489 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:14:09 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #239488 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239488\|ICLRPD] Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,325 by a6l6e6x 12/24/05 1:30:15 PM Reply	Jawohl Mein F\ufffdhrer! Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #239,587 by jb4 12/27/05 5:31:31 PM 12/27/05 5:32:13 PM Reply	I dunno If my basement has an unusually high radon content, or if I happen to be in posession of drinking the water from [link\|http://www.house.gov/sensenbrenner/pr20031120b.html\|Waukesha, WI], does "setting off the box" mena I am a dirty bomber? Sounds like in your world, it does. In my world, it means that I may have a serious health risk, but by no means does that make me al-Qaida. Kids, we really need to start using our brains, before we don't have any! jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Dec. 27, 2005, 05:32:13 PM EST Expand All History
Post #239,590 by drewk 12/27/05 5:39:34 PM Reply	No, just means you have something you shouldn't have The task then becomes figuring out if you have it there on purpose or not. Either answer there means the government has a duty to fix the problem. The only difference is whether that remedy is a public health or a law enforcement action. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #239,613 by Ashton 12/27/05 8:23:58 PM Reply	{chortle}
Post #239,304 by Another Scott 12/24/05 10:09:53 AM Reply	It really depends, in my view. What was the reason for driving by and sampling these particular sites? Was there anything at all to indicate that there might be a threat from any of the people there? If not, I don't think they should have done the monitoring there. If it was a fishing expedition, then they should fish everywhere. Don't just fish where Muslims (or [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=238824\|critics of the Iraq war]) are. I think of this as being similar to a "sobriety checkpoint". All traffic is stopped and drivers are checked to see if they're impaired. Around here, they're in random areas. If they were only set up outside of mosques, or only checked young men with dark brown hair, I would be very concerned... If the purpose of the monitoring was to legitimately check out other information, or maybe to get "baseline" information for subsequent investigation if necessary, then that may be fine. If it's just - "Well the last guys were Sunni Muslims who claimed to be religious, therefore we've got to keep an eye on all religious Sunni Muslims" - then it's crap and should be stopped. We should have at least learned from the [link\|http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm\|WWII internment camps] that singling people out because of their ethnicity or religion is unamerican. Even if they had legitimate reasons for wanting the information, their apparent tactic of sometimes driving up in a driveway and sampling without a search warrant seems to me to be unreasonable searching. They should have requested a court order for a warrant. If this story is true, it seems to be yet another example of the executive branch attempting to take on an unchecked power. That's not good. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,313 by hnick 12/24/05 11:09:59 AM Reply	I'd agree with that. Localized fishing is wrong. If they are sweeping the city, then fine. If there are rumors about dirty bombs, then by all means sweep the city looking for excess radiation. If they are targeting specific people, then present evidence and get a warrant. I would be very unhappy about targeting stereotypes, becasue that would make it a lot easier for whackadoos to use a nice blonde, blue eyed girl to make things go away in a flash. At the same time there is no profit in ignoring middle eastern males between 18 and 40 just because it's not PC. There's got to be a balance somewhere.

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