Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Post #239,288 by pwhysall 12/24/05 4:55:44 AM Reply	Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4557224.stm\|http://news.bbc.co.u...ricas/4557224.stm] I thought that this sort of silly shit was only supposed to happen in Tom Clancy novels? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,292 by warmachine 12/24/05 7:26:59 AM Reply	I wonder if Nazism is taught in US history classes? Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #239,294 by boxley 12/24/05 8:13:21 AM Reply	well if it was brits threatening to use nukes here every fox and hen pub would have a quick driveby to see if they glowed in the dark. The fucktards of the islamic bent have a habit of storing weapons in houses of worship. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #239,299 by hnick 12/24/05 8:32:19 AM Reply	Not really unreasonable. A drive by with a Geiger counter is not particularly invasive. Islamic whackadoos have a tendency to want to blow shit up as much as W does. If a mosque or residence can make the box beep, it's probably a good idea to know about it. Tapping phones without warrant and secret searches are invasive and are illegal. This doesn't seem, it itself, like a terrible idea. The only problem I see, is that it can be used as justification for more invasive searches that ARE illegal.
Post #239,303 by pwhysall 12/24/05 10:08:11 AM Reply	Re: Not really unreasonable. A drive by of your house with a parabolic microphone isn't really invasive, either. They were "just passing" and the recorder "just happened" to be on and you "just happened" to be talking about bombs. It's surveillance, and whether you're listening to my farts or my rad count, it's not on. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,308 by boxley 12/24/05 10:43:04 AM Reply	CCTV on every corner, thats reasonable? but a driveby rad count isnt? drink much? :-) thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #239,309 by pwhysall 12/24/05 10:49:00 AM Reply	That's not an argument. Bill, lemme clue you in. I don't agree with everything the government of my country does, and whether it does something reprehensible or not (plenty, as it turns out, just like every single government on the planet, to a greater or lesser degree) doesn't actually have any bearing whatsofuckingever on whether THIS particular issue is reprehensible. I know you're just trying to be funny, but a vital component of that funniness is that for it to BE funny, I would actually have to have some real element of control over the thing you're trying to ping me about. And now you've got a rise out of me. I guess you win! Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,312 by hnick 12/24/05 11:01:02 AM Reply	I believe you're wrong,. A drive by of my house with a parabolic mike IS invasive. Somebody is recording content and making judgements based on my conversation. This is considerably different from having a significantly higher background radiation than normal. There is no analysis there. If you make the box beep, something is wrong. If not, continue driving. Dirty bombs are a current credible threat. Snooping on conversations for key words is not on, as you would have it. Checking background radiation, I think is reasonable. It is fairly boolean, fairly hard to misinterpret, and having a large quantity of radioactive isotopes is something that could reasonably warrant an explanation. You're going to disagree, and that's freedom for you.
Post #239,314 by pwhysall 12/24/05 11:12:45 AM Reply	Well, if you have nothing to hide... ...then you have nothing to fear, I expect. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,315 by hnick 12/24/05 11:24:21 AM Reply	hee hee First they came for those with the home made neutron bombs... ummm, I don't think that's going to work... As I said in response to Scott's post, I don't think it shoud be used as a fishing probe. If they are sweeping the city, then good on 'em. If there is reason to believe there is some entity trying to implement a dirty bomb, it would be good if they looked for it. If they want specific people, they have to follow the rules. I'm done now. This is only fun if the opponent is trying...
Post #239,316 by pwhysall 12/24/05 11:28:24 AM Reply	To clarify The original story explicitly reports that mosques and private addresses are being checked. That's not maintaining the security of the Homeland, that's harassment of a minority. Further, you and I have no idea whatsoever what level of radiation would be considered significant. What about the microwave oven in the kitchen? What about the contaminated dude who used to work at the nuclear plant? What about that old guy who's still got a watch from the 30s with radium on it? What about the mosque that's on top of a (natural) radioactive iodine source? I just do not trust the government nor their motives in this case, and, indeed, in all cases where some level of increased observation and surveillance of the general populace is proposed or, in this case, carried out. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,318 by Another Scott 12/24/05 12:17:34 PM Reply	Nit: All "radiation" isn't alike. Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. Further, you and I have no idea whatsoever what level of radiation would be considered significant. What about the microwave oven in the kitchen? The "bad" radiation from radioactive materials is what's known as "[link\|http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/ionizing.html\|ionizing radiation]". High energy particles leave the radioactive material and bang into other things, like peoples' organs, give up energy, ionize atoms in the target, and thereby cause damage to the tissue. Radiation from microwave ovens is just radio waves (or light). It's intense and is of a frequency (2.45 GHz) that can interact with tissue. But it's not ionizing radiation. (Very high energy photons - X-rays and gamma-rays - can act as ionizing radiation, but that's not what we're talking about here. Microwave ovens don't produce X-rays.) The USN&WR [link\|http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/nest/051222nest.htm\|story] says: But officials familiar with the FBI/NEST program say the radiation sensors are different and are only sampling the surrounding air. "This kind of program only detects particles in the air, it's non directional," says one knowledgeable official. "It's not a whole lot different from smelling marijuana." They're looking for particles, not radio waves. It's probably similar technology to what was used to detect fallout from nuclear bomb tests. Presumably, Homer from the nuclear plant would give off things if he was contaminated, but presumably they (and the plant operator) already watch such people very carefully as it is. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,319 by pwhysall 12/24/05 12:24:51 PM Reply	I consider myself hejumacated, thanks I did chemistry in my callow youth. Further point, though. So you detect ionising radiation; don't you rather fancy that the Bad Guys have figured this out, and by the time a site goes "hot", the Bad Guys will have already set in motion The Bad Thing? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,320 by Another Scott 12/24/05 12:36:46 PM Reply	Could be. The idea is probably to detect the bad materials and remove them before they have a chance to set their nefarious plan into action. How one does that without turning the country into a gulag is left as an exercise for the reader. Fortunately, many of the people who are attempting to do these bad things aren't too bright. Witness the 2nd round of [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_July_2005_London_bombings\|bus bombings] in the UK. (I hope that JCdM is the last person to die under such circumstances.) Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,321 by pwhysall 12/24/05 12:50:00 PM Reply	Re: Could be. Scarily, though, some of them are very bright indeed. Look at the well-planned and well-executed attacks on 11th September, 2001. My personal sense is that if you're getting clicks on the geiger counter whilst parked up outside a mosque in, say, Denver, you're too late. I can't imagine that al Qaeda would commit anything less than its best agents to an attack involving such hard-to-obtain and difficult-to-handle material. A worrying prospect. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,326 by broomberg 12/24/05 1:32:17 PM Reply	Few cooks, many busboys There are not that many people who can cleanly handle dangerous substances. For all we know, they have multiple tiers of people since they are running multiple projects, and they might have cell level isolation which keeps the really smart people far away from the ground operation. Remember, the ground people are wackos, waiting to die for their cause, so they can hit on the grape wielding virgins. These are STUPID people. They make a decent tools for the smart guys, in certain circumstances, but are not to be trusted in anything too complex. When shipping these substances, they probably are not in any condition to be part of the final bomb since the method of shipping will probably include some type of disguise. Which means some type of assembly required before usage. The shielding and cleanroom handling equipment is to protect the handlers. But the designers of this stuff do not care about the handlers. They are disposable. So the containers need to be well shielded during shipment, so people don't pick up on any leaking radiation. But when they get to the point of final assembly, it is unlikely they will have lab level radiation handling equipment. Who give a rat's ass if the final assemblers are hit with a shot of radiation that will cause cancer in 6 months? They expect to be dead in a week anyway. All of which ups the chance for a handling fuckup pretty dramatically. So this particular method of scanning for this particular type of radiation seems to be the best combination of non-intrusive and non-fishing expedition.
Post #239,384 by Simon_Jester 12/25/05 9:57:54 AM Reply	I think that's a dangerous assumption... Remember, the ground people are wackos, waiting to die for their cause, so they can hit on the grape wielding virgins. These are STUPID people. They make a decent tools for the smart guys, in certain circumstances, but are not to be trusted in anything too complex. I agree that stupid people (shoe-bomber) are easy to get and can't be trusted with anything too complex. However, 9/11 showed that there are very smart, dedicated people out there with a definite agenda...and that they are willing to sacrifice themselves to meet their objective. The good news is that, the supply of such people is pretty limited and sucicide attacks tend to use up their own numbers. :-)
Post #239,385 by broomberg 12/25/05 10:11:23 AM Reply	Infinite supply of stupid people Keep them isolated in their own schools. No end to the supply.
Post #239,589 by jb4 12/27/05 5:35:56 PM Reply	You mean, in Kansas? jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #239,386 by boxley 12/25/05 11:10:16 AM Reply	popoular example, palestinians you never see leaders of the militant terror orgs strapping a bomb onto one of their own kids, always someone socially marginalized from a totally indoctrinated populace. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #239,322 by ben_tilly 12/24/05 12:58:17 PM Reply	I would bet that... A level of radiation significant enough to draw official attention would also be significant enough that the people in that building would not want to be accidentally exposed to it. Certainly if the feds came to my house, pointed out that my radiation levels were high and then discovered that (like about 1-3% of US houses) I had a high enough background level of radioactive materials to constitute a significant risk of cancer, I'd personally appreciate it. I'm with Hugh. Checking the radiation level of my house isn't going to compromise any personal information about me. I object to it less than, say, taking a picture of my house using a satellite. (Which pictures are commonly used by municipal governments to spot people who have been doing unauthorized construction and aren't paying taxes on their new amenities.) Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,392 by Arkadiy 12/25/05 12:39:46 PM Reply	It's not "harrasment" It's a minimally-invasive procedure to detect a minority within a minority. Those bastards are clearly giving out their intentions and their address: intentions are to blow infidels up and the address is wherever true (in their sense) Muslims live. I'd consider our Govt amiss if they did not act on such a clear warning - within the law. You Brits forgot what the hell "harrasment" means. "You don't have to fight a Jew, you know... Just send a file of Marines to hyde his unbelieving skin and ram a piece of bacon down his throat." That's harrasment. Look at a Musim in a wrong way, and he (never she) cries harrasment. Sometines I feel like those sensitive souls need to be reminded what the hell harrasment is. And, if their crasies keep on behaving like they do, the rest of Muslims will eventually learn it the hard way. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #239,400 by pwhysall 12/25/05 3:31:26 PM Reply	Slippery slopes are, so, well, slippery, aren't they? Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,467 by Arkadiy 12/26/05 8:02:56 PM Reply	We're all on that slope together If you refuse to admit it, you don't get any better grip. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #239,489 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:14:09 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #239488 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239488\|ICLRPD] Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,325 by a6l6e6x 12/24/05 1:30:15 PM Reply	Jawohl Mein F\ufffdhrer! Alex The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #239,587 by jb4 12/27/05 5:31:31 PM 12/27/05 5:32:13 PM Reply	I dunno If my basement has an unusually high radon content, or if I happen to be in posession of drinking the water from [link\|http://www.house.gov/sensenbrenner/pr20031120b.html\|Waukesha, WI], does "setting off the box" mena I am a dirty bomber? Sounds like in your world, it does. In my world, it means that I may have a serious health risk, but by no means does that make me al-Qaida. Kids, we really need to start using our brains, before we don't have any! jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Dec. 27, 2005, 05:32:13 PM EST Expand All History
Post #239,590 by drewk 12/27/05 5:39:34 PM Reply	No, just means you have something you shouldn't have The task then becomes figuring out if you have it there on purpose or not. Either answer there means the government has a duty to fix the problem. The only difference is whether that remedy is a public health or a law enforcement action. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #239,613 by Ashton 12/27/05 8:23:58 PM Reply	{chortle}
Post #239,304 by Another Scott 12/24/05 10:09:53 AM Reply	It really depends, in my view. What was the reason for driving by and sampling these particular sites? Was there anything at all to indicate that there might be a threat from any of the people there? If not, I don't think they should have done the monitoring there. If it was a fishing expedition, then they should fish everywhere. Don't just fish where Muslims (or [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=238824\|critics of the Iraq war]) are. I think of this as being similar to a "sobriety checkpoint". All traffic is stopped and drivers are checked to see if they're impaired. Around here, they're in random areas. If they were only set up outside of mosques, or only checked young men with dark brown hair, I would be very concerned... If the purpose of the monitoring was to legitimately check out other information, or maybe to get "baseline" information for subsequent investigation if necessary, then that may be fine. If it's just - "Well the last guys were Sunni Muslims who claimed to be religious, therefore we've got to keep an eye on all religious Sunni Muslims" - then it's crap and should be stopped. We should have at least learned from the [link\|http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm\|WWII internment camps] that singling people out because of their ethnicity or religion is unamerican. Even if they had legitimate reasons for wanting the information, their apparent tactic of sometimes driving up in a driveway and sampling without a search warrant seems to me to be unreasonable searching. They should have requested a court order for a warrant. If this story is true, it seems to be yet another example of the executive branch attempting to take on an unchecked power. That's not good. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,313 by hnick 12/24/05 11:09:59 AM Reply	I'd agree with that. Localized fishing is wrong. If they are sweeping the city, then fine. If there are rumors about dirty bombs, then by all means sweep the city looking for excess radiation. If they are targeting specific people, then present evidence and get a warrant. I would be very unhappy about targeting stereotypes, becasue that would make it a lot easier for whackadoos to use a nice blonde, blue eyed girl to make things go away in a flash. At the same time there is no profit in ignoring middle eastern males between 18 and 40 just because it's not PC. There's got to be a balance somewhere.
Post #239,431 by Ashton 12/25/05 9:39:31 PM Reply	I don't think its silly or excessive, all things considered - as others have outlined. And I'd start with the Obvious too: the Fact that mosques are clearly no Prohibited Zones for warmaking, under present ample evidence. SO look there First == it's easy to find. Then: keep looking, regularly - the techno is getting cheaper and better than a mere Geiger counter - you'd like to ID the energy spectrum, once you'd found a response, etc. You need to be intimately -in bones- acquainted with: I = I₀E^kt Whilst this matter of monitoring is ~akin to the Narcs cruising about with IR detectors, looking for pot-growing warm basements (and, same groups getting Utilities to report suspiciously high power usage in residences, etc.) -- this practice remains, apparently, legal-ish in many US States, last time I looked. Yes, bucket/worms issues are ever raised, particularly with neofascists at the helm. But even if the above examples were Not legalish: I submit that the non-invasive detection of unusual amounts of radiation anywhere: is only a Good Thing. Any such found, might well be unknown to someone whose foundation, retaining-wall contained a bunch of pretty orange-yellow Carnotite ore, black pitchblende, etc. (True) stories exist of say, idiots opening once-stolen casks full of Co⁶⁰ - parts of decommissioned med. instruments, and spreading around the little 'beads' etc. Ignorance Kills. (It did, in that case.) I note also a recent story of a yahoo who wishes to purchase a decommissioned cyclotron from a Univ - for cost of hauling it away - and desires to reassemble it and power it: in basement of a suburban house.. Look up sometime, what it is that a Health Physicist needs to know: a few Googles will Not suffice to assess such matters - it will only serve to demonstrate why You cannot guesstimate much, on the subject. Nope, there's just too-Much basic Ignorance all around in Murica (I suspect not much better in Euro) about what any "radiation" is, and about how little / much? one can learn about a source .. non-invasively, and from afar. Perhaps my periodic issues of Bulletin of the At. Scientists serve to remind me regularly, but I've known since childhood: that both US and USSR have oodles of massive weapons remaining on Ready Alert, Today, long after there is any non-psychiatric 'need' for these Damocles swords. But an amaturish local dirty weapon is no longer a What-if? so much as a palpable goal of the sorts of deranged religio-fanatics which the planet cheerfully, mindlessly tolerates, even nurtures.. callin such behaviour 'normal' or something. In any event, I possess the chops to have an opinion in a field which was my hobby in HS - and later on, career. 'Radiation' gets complex fast, and diagnosis indeed requires some equipment and knowledge of what can be inferred, before more sophi$ticated equipment is demanded. Maybe immediately. (Can't spend $100K for every group.) Lastly, a dirty bomb would not need the proper functioning of even a simple gun-type fissionable device; shielding many Curies of spent reactor fuel is about MASSIVE (massively heavy) such shielding. Neither Al-Q nor Super-God-Man can stealthily stack 30 tonne blocks, etc. I agree with others' asssessments here - the drones will be seen as expendable - nothing tricky to assemble; just eat the 500+ Rads/hr exposure. One can manage that for ~an hour before your cells turn to jello. Send in 2 at a time till they throw up, then a bit longer; repeat, etc. ie Let's monitor regularly and widely. There is pervasive dumbth, ennui even re the accidental sorts (which monitors might well discover too, depending..) - and the prospect today of intentional massive contamination makes this a No Brainer. (Without cataloguing your pron collection.) My 500 Rads (==One MLD: mean lethal dose. Half will die at ~500 total.)
Post #239,432 by imqwerky 12/25/05 10:09:57 PM Reply	I agree with you, Ashton Although I think it is sad that we live in times like these. I don't live far from a mosque and hate to think that the majority of good people who worship there are being exposed to harmful substances by the few people who are in cahoots with the radicals. There's even a school there and I would hate to think that they are storing hazardous materials near young children. I suppose a drive-by sweep with a Geiger counter in no more invasive than it has to be considering the intelligence that requires its use. If there were the slightest chance that my church would be harboring such activities, I wouldn't be offended by such a sweep. Trying to put the shoe on the other foot, Amy "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #239,433 by Another Scott 12/25/05 11:43:56 PM Reply	Understood. You present a good case. But... There are lots of hazardous substances that can cause lots of damage to lots of people. Dirty bombs are scarier, but probably wouldn't cause more real-life damage than a chemical attack (c.f. the Tokyo subway [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway\|attack]). How can I say such a thing? Well, consider [link\|http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/dirty-bomb.cfm\|this] article by the CDI; though as a counterpoint one should also consider [link\|http://www.fas.org/faspir/2002/v55n2/dirtybomb.htm\|this] one by the FAS. My concern isn't the snooping so much - I agree that non-invasive searches are better for sweeping large areas than, say, mandatory door-to-door searches. My concern is that no warrant was requested. At some point, IMO, if you're on my land then you should need my permission to conduct sampling of my property. If you don't have my permission, then you should be forced to demonstrate to a judge that you need to be legally permitted to do the sampling. I worry about the precedent this sets. If this is permitted, why not have the FBI drive up and down our streets with supercomputers and \ufffdbersensitive microphones and pentabyte disk-arrays, recording every sound for subsequent analysis and indefinite storage. Well, it's out there in public, so it's fair game - right? It looks like Bobby Jones down the street is a member of the NRA and likes to play FPS games - our software profiling indicates he might be training to be an extremist. Maybe we should have a record of what he does at home for the next 10 years - just in case... :-( I'm sorry - I don't buy it. Radioactive materials don't grow on trees. Sources of large enough quantities of radioactive materials to be useful in a bomb are well know and are (or should be!) carefully controlled. (E.g Al-qaeda isn't going to go to Home Depot and buy 100,000 smoke alarms to make their bomb.) The transportation infrastructure could be monitored to see if radioactive materials are moving through it. Etc. Obviously, contacts with known extremists and terrorist groups should be carefully monitored (within the law). If law enforcement has some probable cause, or some legitimate reason to investigate a building or an area, then let them get a warrant. If they want a "clean baseline" to be able to quickly spot changes in an area, then that may be fine too. But unless there was more reason to investigate the mosques and homes of Muslims than was presented in the USN&WR report (and I didn't notice much of any), then they should have been forced to get a warrant to do the sampling on private property. As you point out, recent court decisions may have reduced the need for law enforcement to get such warrants. If so, I think that's a bad trend. Bottom line: A court should act as a civil protection to prevent directed fishing expeditions that don't meet a reasonable standard of necessity or probable cause. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #239,437 by boxley 12/25/05 11:59:52 PM Reply	you are seriously confused look at your local zoning and zoning inspector laws, in Anchorage Alaska a zoning inspector can enter your fenced yard to inspect for zoning violations, one of the primary violations is hazmat storage. In most municipalities a fire, electrical, plumbing inspector, utility workers can go onto your land and visually inspect items such a gas line, illegal electrical hookups and suspicious containers. Even as far back as 1973 I worked as a gas leak inspector accross the South. It involved sensing equipment that would check for leaking gas parts. I would walk legally into your yard up to the meter and demand entry in case I needed to trace inside, usually with a large cop standing next to me. City State and Federal law supported same. Now your local zonong might not mention specifically fuckwits building a dirty bomb, but any laws like "storage of unlicenced vehicles not allowed" offers legal entry to your property for zoning inspectors who can carry rad meters while they are there and do it legally. Like Peter earlier said, a lot of legal crap goes on that I hate, zoning enforcement being one of them, but it is a legal practice. Also, a mosque parking lot is a public place allowing what is called a "licensee" someone who has no real business there but may tootle around doing their own business, That is settled law.Legal? Absolutely, needful? as needful as it is to check the expiration date of the plates on my van backed against the garage door. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,438 by Another Scott 12/26/05 12:45:07 AM Reply	Fair enough. Thanks.
Post #239,441 by Simon_Jester 12/26/05 10:23:09 AM Reply	Box is right... between easements and inspections for public safety; there's nothing wrong with what the Feds have done. The problem is their basic assumption. The Feds are concentrating on nuclear materials (geiger counters and the like). A fast review of the attacks on the US do NOT show nuclear materials being used (perhaps because the Feds have done a good job). From Oklahoma to 9/11, basic everyday materials can do a lot more damage than most people realize.
Post #239,463 by Ashton 12/26/05 6:39:37 PM Reply	Let's not get lost in triage of 'threats' here - As a long-time $supporter of CDI (have mentioned visiting them in DC) - I find their material among the most thoughtful, decently edited and - generally 'wise' .. around. Seeing their operation 'live' - priceless. I regret that their regular half-hours, years ago even on local bucolic PBS station .. have declined in recent years. Not enough $$, or mass Interest, I expect. Not enough car chases. :-/ That said, the CDI report is entirely logical and in accord with my experience (which helps me, if not you.) And BTW, a "20-25% increase over background" - via -not cosmic rays- but mobile particulate matter may Not be so easily lumped-together as a simple "%increase". This especially re long-term consequences, genetic and other. Another thread, that.. and not a simple one. And yes, the Psychological aspects (especially in primitive, superstitious, uninformed cultures like ours) - may indeed trump the physical, $$$ aspects of such an Event. As pointed out by CDI - Nightmarish though it may be, the dirty bomb scenario is thus one that must be prepared for, albeit one wherein the psychological dangers appear greater than the physical. That al Qaeda appears to have made more inroads into the production of such a device than was previously believed to be the case heightens such dangers even further. After all, look how effective have been the Rove/G\ufffdbbels propaganda barrages: Words-alone! mere fear-mongering sans Substance. THAT is "where we live"... Point: not a huge investment is needed, to continue regular background checks. Nor are the perps flawless in their strategy, tactics execution - simply because They Were, on that one day. A bonus (whatever the actual physiological risk of some actual planned event) -- is, a cheap sensor, whose warning might well lead to a rarity: actually catching some sickos. You Watch before you Pounce. We can afford to do this. All the other stuff will always be debatable, legitimate arguments re priorities, triage shall occur, etc. Few of these options shall achieve consensus -- I think that this one should, if there's a single Authority Figure left with a sense of Scale and Relativity\ufffd (A large IF, sadly.) (IMO, consequences of worldwide general-ignorance re isotopes and their consequences, just may prove as instrumental in the replacement of our ditzy species -??- as any of the too-numerous other catalysts on our various lists. Unfortunately, there can be no simple, compelling 'explanation for the masses' of the manifold consequences of our proliferation of these substances.) One can only watch, shake head - and make best use of the time, by Living. Worrying about lemming-like behaviour in one's species can only grow hairy warts on neurons; possibly lead to burkha purchases in the febrile? or the championing of Windoze. :-) moi
Post #239,439 by pwhysall 12/26/05 12:48:39 AM Reply	It's both, and here's why I think so. All this kind of bollocks does is send a message to The Terrorists: "Don't keep your radioactive shit in mosques, stash it in a church instead" Unwarranted monitoring of mosques today, unwarranted phone tapping tomorrow. Unwarranted search and seizure next week. Today the Muslims, tomorrow the atheists. Monitor at ports. Monitor on roads. Monitor at airports. Do it legally. Do it openly. This sneaky "yeah, damn that pesky Constitution" bollocks is getting on my tits. It's harder work being principled, but that's no reason not to be. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,460 by Ashton 12/26/05 5:43:30 PM Reply	If you'll note - - We can always try for simple, sans simplistic (or wishful) - can't we? Believing this 'issue' too important to get drowned in generalities of the day, I intentionally omitted the very many means whereby fuckwits like our current ruling junta -- regularly elide 'intents of laws' in their march for that homogenization-of-mindset -- that which precedes the methodical militarization of the whole place. We've done that one, repeatedly. Nobody here's forgotten, I trust. Nor did I attempt to assign %relative-risk of radioactive VS the n-thousand other means by which deranged humanoids can create chaos in a massively techno-dependent ~~house-of-cards~~ modern, excessively-rich, consumer-besotted environment. cf. The Open Society and Its Enemies, Karl Popper. What I said was: it is relatively easy to make at least coarse sweeps of an entire town - simply for the purpose of early-detection of any radiation source that is clearly well beyond natural [1]background. I said, "We Should Do This". (I Don't Care if.. 'mosques' are the first place inspected /detected-from-afar; get on to the remaining 99.9% too. Methodically. For the duration.. of all mob madness. Hey, that might be longer than 'Iraq' - such as We Are. This genie has been out of the bottle since 1939 and 'we' haven't gotten any smarter, or even mature. Let alone informed.) I have experience/lore of what happens with radiation from pervasive low-levels to the agonizing deaths of high-levels. I aver that my concern is neither exaggerated nor misplaced, (nor 'sentimental'.) Why would I? - a one manifestly anti- all the oft-mentioned excesses of Bestial Authority - renege in This Case. D'oh! think cataclysms: when you multiply exceeding-small probabilities X exceeding-dire consequences (like ~towns built atop lava channels! of volcanoes) - a different math must be done. So, ultimately this matter, and Now, devolves to classic forensics - MOM: Means, opportunity and motive. We are fully aware of motives of the religio-mad seppuku-intent. Every putative Open Society is rife with opportunities for crashing its fragile, intricately interdependent systems. Some with no reboot, in a generation or so. THAT's why "we monitor" even for the highly improbable: because it is no longer Impossible, and we Know that there are rapturin-out folks East & West, those besotted with delusions of Certainty (I'm Right/They're Wrong): those who care not an iota re the trashing of the planet -- if'n they get their virgins / and-or angel-wings, earlier / and get to enjoy watching* the heretics Burn. (For some, clearly the schadenfreude is even more delicious than the virgins - sitting next to the Imagined anthro-Bearded One and watching the perps fry: that's the ticket! to Bliss. Roller Ball for miniscule-brain washed twits. The Few: drawn from the millions with lesser gumption to Fix Things, terminally.) Fortunately (for us) as Scott has suggested: the means* for acquiring, accumulating kiloCuries of some spent fuel (short of a core dump like Chernobyl) are not so simple. In the US, thus far. Elsewhere ..?.. then it becomes a matter of transport. Wanna bet we have that Covered 100.0% ? maybe by Michael Brown's housekeeper.. Carrion Avge. Kenwood background, over months: 14.7 cpm. YMMV [1] Background: which varies greatly with altitude, local geology, etc. Ever turn on your pocket Geiger counter in an airliner? I have.. [with the audio off, lest the uninformed panic.] Physics Works: instead of 10-20 cosmic ray counts/minute - think 500-700. (Long-time aircrews surely suffer enhanced probabilities of Bad Things, especially those with weaker immune systems. We have little hard data on prolonged lo-level exposure; have lots of cant re "threshhold" or None. Etc.)
Post #239,591 by jb4 12/27/05 5:43:20 PM Reply	Uhh, Peter... ..the unauthorized phone tapping happened the day before yesterday, not tomorrow as you have it on your schedule. Please try to keep up. :-0 jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #239,470 by warmachine 12/26/05 9:11:59 PM Reply	Isn't this racial profiling? Isn't this examining mosques because Al-Qaeda is Muslim very broad profiling? With no actual reason to believe terrorists are present, this is very broad-net-fishing. A flouroscope gets the place raided and absolutely everything consficated. A misunderstood phrase on a wiretap and some Muslim's life is suspended for 2 years until the FBI realise there was no evidence to hide in the first place. And this happens frequently but only to Muslims. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #239,471 by Ashton 12/26/05 9:26:02 PM Reply	If they stop at just mosques: yes. If they elect to scan near mosques, in initial sweep - merely common sense. (And I'd opine - if mosques Are the only places given a drive-by -?- they/we are and remain; as malevolently Stupid as Wolfowitz and the insouciant neoconmen demonstrably have been, all along. In every aspect of following-up after the Bomb Shows, which they obv. get-off on.)
Post #239,490 by pwhysall 12/27/05 3:20:02 AM Reply	Have you read the story? I'm not being facetious, either; there seems to be a number of respondents to this thread who I'd ask the same question to, in all seriousness. The whole point of the story linked was that mosques and private residences have been tested, in some cases agents venturing onto private property to do so. (I leave it to your vivid imagination to speculate on the religious/ethnic characteristics of the residents of those private properties. I'd bet a pint or three on "Muslim/Arab", though) That's what's boiling my piss. "We'd better go test us some radimification levels at dem sand nigger places, Jeb" <-- GWB (note: the aforementioned quote is a dramatic reconstruction, and may or may not reflect what GWB actually said (I'm reasonably confident that the retard didn't think anything)) Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,498 by Ashton 12/27/05 6:05:19 AM Reply	Re: Have you read the story? Yes. It's vague about what instruments were being used for "monitoring"; BBC says "air monitoring". That would be looking for particulates that are radioactive; dust from sloppy handling? I suppose. Nothing in the article mentions (say) a scintillation counter (a photomultiplier amplifying light from a sensitive crystal). This for detecting leakage of primary radiation, from a not well-enough shielded repository - which I'd think would be used too. So I don't get Matthew's ref to 'fluoroscope' .. as that would be a means for making X-rays visible, usually via your own X-ray source - - after passing through er, meat. It's hardly a 'particle, wavicle detector' of any low-level sensitivity. (Surely they aren't wandering about with some silly ZnS screen - in 2005, with all that free money for terrierism.) I read no implication that any radiation has been found, so the debate remains about the ethics of even looking for radiation near mosques. Believe I've given my views on that. (Including: if they are looking only around mosques - then they have their heads up arses, and -- I Would call that: some sort of -ism, but mostly, stupid-ism.) Not that stupidism would be surprising in this matter; why spoil a perfect record in all areas to date by, aberrantly - doing this one right?
Post #239,501 by drewk 12/27/05 9:00:18 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #239500 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239500\|ICLRPD] === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #239,511 by boxley 12/27/05 10:53:52 AM Reply	death to america, death to jews jihad jihad now time for tea and not expect to be looked at? Since I doubt they hit every darkish looking great satan hater I suspect the drivebys were againsts residents that fit some profile, a subset of muslims, wahabbi perhaps, no different than targeting the Aryan Christian movement. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,473 by boxley 12/26/05 10:02:25 PM Reply	is it racial profiling to check for unlicenced cars in only poor neighborhoods? when the inevitable race of poor people is usually non white? Besides Islam is a religion, not a race (whoot finally get to use that line on someone else!) Taking a swing thru the mosque parking lot, as well as storage warehouses homes, apts garages are certainly reasonable. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,483 by imqwerky 12/26/05 11:54:47 PM Reply	There are several Muslims at our school and they are not Middle Eastern, they are White Wimmen. I 'spose they are married to Middle Eastern men, but to say that all Muslims are of a certain race is bogus. Just setting the record straight from where I'm sitting. Amy "It's never too late to be who you might have been." ~ George Eliot
Post #239,626 by warmachine 12/27/05 10:33:53 PM Reply	Vagueries of English - try again - cultural profiling Isn't this profiling based on broad behaviour that is not criminal? The word 'profiling' means based on criminal behaviour. As racial profiling does not mean based on non-criminal behaviour in American, let us invent a new word to avoid confusion - cultural profiling. Cultural profiling is bad 'cos lots of innocent members of this culture are hassled. Although, in this case, very few false positives will happen, methods such as wiretapping will result in this. Surely it is better to scan areas used by known, terrorist operatives with known nuclear ambitions, not simply mosques? Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #239,692 by boxley 12/28/05 12:22:22 PM Reply	I know how echelon works it streams all calls outside CONUS for "deemed useful" words, I believe they have turned it on inside CONUS in th same fashion which means everyones communications are scrutinized electronically. Some receive more scrutiny than others. I find it interesting that you dont like this, living in a country that did that much and more in Ireland thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,704 by pwhysall 12/28/05 1:56:01 PM Reply	You're conflating people and government again, Bill. Desist. I find it interesting that you dont like this, living in a country that did that much and more in Ireland This sentence makes an unacceptable and unfounded assumption about Matt's political position with respect to the events in Ireland (which, incidentally, were done and dusted before anyone posting here was born). By the same logic, you are in complete agreement with your government and its historic actions at all times, as you demonstrably still live there. I take it you didn't read my post at [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=239309\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=239309] Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,718 by boxley 12/28/05 5:04:21 PM Reply	is the british army still in Ireland? I dont remember reading about the pullout of the occupation troops. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,719 by inthane-chan 12/28/05 5:08:10 PM Reply	I don't remember Peter supporting them either.
Post #239,720 by ben_tilly 12/28/05 5:11:52 PM Reply	The occupying settlers still want them there Northern Ireland did not join the rest because a majority of the locals were Protestants who were descended from English people who moved there. And those locals prefer to be part of England. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,721 by pwhysall 12/28/05 5:12:25 PM Reply	s/England/The UK/ Your point stands, though. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,725 by ben_tilly 12/28/05 5:28:26 PM Reply	Oops, you're right I'd thought that those settlers came from England specifically, but google tells me that many came from Scotland as well. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #239,727 by pwhysall 12/28/05 5:31:20 PM Reply	Hence "Unionists" Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,722 by pwhysall 12/28/05 5:13:33 PM Reply	No. They're in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,733 by boxley 12/28/05 6:10:11 PM Reply	Oh, just garrison sojers? [link\|http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/deaths2005draft.htm\|http://cain.ulst.ac....aths2005draft.htm] uh huh thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,734 by pwhysall 12/28/05 6:17:49 PM Reply	You're now officially out of your depth. The UVF and UDA are paramilitary terrorist organisations. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #239,736 by boxley 12/28/05 6:41:21 PM Reply	you man like Fatah and Al Aska Martyr Brigades? [link\|http://www.scottishloyalists.com/paramilitaries/uda.htm\|http://www.scottishl...ilitaries/uda.htm] During the Stevens inquiry it became apparent that the UDA had access to a large number of security files on Republicans and suspected members of Republican paramilitary groups. looks like a wink and nod situation there. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,738 by pwhysall 12/28/05 6:44:58 PM 12/28/05 6:45:41 PM Reply	Practically on the payroll. If that's what you want to believe. Of course, you've got to conquer your own demons of being a supporter of segregation. internment, imprisonment without trial, secret military tribunals, unfettered wiretapping without a warrant, and extra-judicial executions first; after all, your government did it therefore you support it. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! Edited by pwhysall Dec. 28, 2005, 06:45:41 PM EST Expand All History
Post #239,741 by boxley 12/28/05 6:53:49 PM Reply	:-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #239,748 by warmachine 12/28/05 8:20:46 PM Reply	That is not discussing cultural profiling Keyword scanning of the entire telephone system does not target any specific groups and is not cultural profiling. If known suspects are better scanned, then that's criminal profiling. No subculture is going to feel besieged by the wiretapping you described. Matthew Greet Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Post #239,751 by boxley 12/28/05 8:39:15 PM Reply	well, thats how echelon works and they can tune it to grab all conversations from a single target if needed. If the NSA is doing it as claimed, thats how. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep

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