Post #238,805
12/21/05 3:08:48 PM
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And you trust this information?
Clinton had 900 FBI files, including files of key opponents, in the White House. Think he had all the correct approvals for >that<?
Pardon me for thinking you naive if you believe this is the first time this has ever happened.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #238,816
12/21/05 3:22:08 PM
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Only 900? Piker!
NixonHoover had tens of thousands.
But that's OK, because Clinton....
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #238,821
12/21/05 3:30:18 PM
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Hoover?
um..he ran the FBI.
Nixon is the reason the 74 Privacy Act was passed...and that is the law the Clinton's walked all over in maintaining and illegally accessing the FBI files.
But thanks for helping me prove that this crap has been going on a LONG time prior to this administration.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #238,841
12/21/05 4:56:28 PM
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But of course that makes it OK in your world.
Only new corruption is bad in Planet BeeP. Old corruption, polished, retooled, and raised to a new level, is quite alright, especially when it is done by an administration you believe in.
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #238,843
12/21/05 5:01:35 PM
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He didn't say it isn't bad, he said it isn't new
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #238,849
12/21/05 5:09:09 PM
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Cuz uf cours if ya ain't with us yer agin us.
After all, if you point out flaws in, or similarities the opposition may have to the current junta, that must mean that you must be walking lockstep, a willing and devoted supporter of that junta, eh? Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss never really happens, after all - it wasn't a warning that needs to be repeated. The opposition party MUST be clean, white and innocent, thier heroic stance through the decades the only true and virtuaous force in politics...
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #238,857
12/21/05 5:25:12 PM
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Not what bothers me
Let's suppose the only difference between the current administration and previous ones is how open this one is about what they're doing. (I don't think that's the case, but let's suppose.) I think there's something to be said for hiding your worst instincts. It shows that at least you know someone may not be thrilled with what you're doing to them.
It's sort of the same as comparing what you heard in Alabama in the early 50s to what you might hear in (for instance) Cincinatti today. There may actually be race problems in Cinci, but at least most people most of the time know you can't say that in public. Saying it publically doesn't make it worse, but it's a symptom of a more-broken system.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #238,861
12/21/05 5:29:40 PM
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nit: Cincinnati. An Ohioan should know that. ;-)
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Post #238,863
12/21/05 5:42:41 PM
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What's that have to do with me?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #238,867
12/21/05 5:49:42 PM
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[Whoosh.]
You're still in (the) Cleveland (area), aren't you?
Ok, in this case, I'm calling anyone who lives in Ohio for an extended period of time an Ohioan - even if they weren't born there.
Or am I missing something???
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #238,871
12/21/05 5:57:53 PM
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No, you're not missing anything, I'm being a prick
Just because I am here doesn't mean I'm from here.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #238,874
12/21/05 6:00:35 PM
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You fit right in then. __________________________________:-)
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Post #238,876
12/21/05 6:03:30 PM
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HE moved there deliberately... <snicker>
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Post #238,878
12/21/05 6:07:39 PM
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The f*** I did
Uncle Same made me come here, my wife made me stay.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #238,882
12/21/05 6:14:25 PM
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Sure, blame the wife
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #238,875
12/21/05 6:03:05 PM
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No...not even
In the 60s it wasn't "corruption" per se...because it wasn't illegal for the Exec branch to be granted unfettered access to FBI files. Doesn't make what Nixon and Hoover were doing any better...but it does make it >legal<.
However, no corruption in fed government is good (old or new)...it just seems like it took George W for most of you to notice crap that has been happening for a long time. Each one of these "scandals" is met with a "can you believe this neocon junta would do >that<?"
And as I brought up, the Clinton's seemed to skate away from what I thought was one of the more troubling aspects of their tenure simply because a stain on a blue dress seemed to make things more interesting for Ken Starr. They were "spying" on US citizens that opposed them, simply put.
Its not that I agree with W or disagree with BC. I don't trust ANY of them and never have. But I'm not naive enough to think that shrub is actually >inventing< anything at all.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #238,938
12/22/05 9:36:49 AM
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I don't think that's quite accurate
Leaving aside your abuse of the apostrophe, the Clinton's . . . were "spying" on US citizens that opposed them, simply put. doesn't jibe with my recollections. As I remember, the Clintons requested the *existing* FBI background checks on the staff of previous administrations. The FBI boxed 'em up and sent 'em over. Yes Bill, there is a difference. And no, I am not condoning this, just pointing out that there is a qualitative difference between what Bush is doing and what Clinton did that you are saying does not exist.
----------------------------------------- No new taxes. --George H. W. Bush
We don't torture. --George W. Bush
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Post #238,977
12/22/05 1:28:11 PM
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The incredulity is deserved
after all, this "administration" got into power (intervention by the Brooks Brothers Riot notwithstanding) on the promise that they were gonna "clean up gub'mint...give [link|/forums/render/user?username=us|us] a gub'mint [we] can trust...a gub'mint [we] can be proud of again...."
Well, if this is what the "neocon junta" wants to pass off a "clean", I'll take an Oval Office blow job any day of the week, and twice on Sunday!
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #238,980
12/22/05 1:35:01 PM
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Only if Hilary or Condi win.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #238,996
12/22/05 2:09:53 PM
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s/Hillary or Condi win/Grace Park wins
When somebody asks you to trade your freedom for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
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Post #239,007
12/22/05 3:36:04 PM
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I remember it being phrased a bit differently
that being "restore the office of the President" and some such nonsense. Hear your point and concede, however. With every successive Pres since Jimmy we have gone downhill from a quality perspective.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #239,024
12/22/05 4:34:29 PM
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s/Jimmy/Ike/
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Post #239,049
12/22/05 6:26:17 PM
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Yeah, ok. Probably true.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #239,113
12/23/05 3:25:26 AM
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Well, while we're cherry picking scurrilities
(Kinda like eliding Revelations, Leviticus when selectively embracing the 'Good' parts?) Here's another take on the 'complete' Drudgeronomy, via [link|http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2005/12/23/surveillance/index.html| Salon] But ... WTF, we can alays interview Rev Foulwell - for the clerical position, too - Excuses, excuses
In trying to justify Bush's warrantless spying, his defenders are distorting the facts about Clinton and due process of the law.
By Joe Conason
Dec. 23, 2005 | Notwithstanding the haughty pretensions of this imperial president -- who never apologizes and rarely explains -- the officials, scribes and courtiers of the Bush administration are busy fashioning excuses for the illegal-surveillance scandal. Advanced by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales as well as the likes of Matt Drudge and Rush Limbaugh, these sophistries range from the absurdly illogical to the blatantly misleading.
Someday the courts may justify or rebuke what Bush has done. Someday Congress may exonerate or punish him. Someday we may find ourselves yoked by a kinglike "wartime president," or we may at last be freed of his ongoing excesses. In the meantime, however, it is worth clearing away the intellectual chaff spread so persistently by his enablers.
In his signature style, Drudge has sought to suggest that Bush has done nothing that Democratic presidents didn't do, which may reflect his own continuing obsession with Bill Clinton. The Internet gossip's headline this week blared, "Clinton Executive Order: Secret Search on Americans Without Court Order..." He went on to link to a National Review Online article that made much of a Clinton order in 1994 authorizing warrantless searches. But it is important to connect the dots, as the president would say, in Drudge's ellipsis points. The Clinton executive order permitted such searches only under certain very limited circumstances that are legal under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the very statute that Bush has admitted ignoring.
The Center for American Progress noted Wednesday what Drudge left out and what the National Review's Byron York elided -- namely, the difference between search or surveillance operations conducted against foreigners and those conducted against American citizens. ("Some people," York later noted in chiding exaggerations on both sides of the issue, "have said that Bill Clinton signed an executive order authorizing such surveillance; he did not.")
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act restrictions were designed to protect Americans, not to hobble U.S. counterintelligence aimed at foreign spies and terrorists.
That was why Clinton's order authorized the attorney general "to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year" -- but only if the attorney general "makes the certifications required" by Section 302(a)(1) of FISA. That section requires the attorney general to certify that the search or surveillance in question would not invade the property or premises of "a United States person," meaning a citizen or someone living here legally. By leaving out the same qualification, Drudge made the same incorrect implication about an order signed by Jimmy Carter in 1979. Then again, as Drudge has occasionally boasted, his reporting is 80 percent correct -- but sometimes that omitted 20 percent can make all the difference.
On Tuesday, Limbaugh, another Clinton obsessive, relied on the same false assumptions to claim that the Clinton administration had done "exactly what George W. Bush did" in authorizing warrantless surveillance. In fact, the position of the Clinton Justice Department was clear: Not only did Clinton believe that FISA properly balances civil liberties and national security, but he supported expanding its provisions in 1994 to cover physical searches as well as electronic surveillance.
Perhaps the most revealing assertions were made by Gonzales, the White House yes-man who has given cover to every trespass of legality by this administration, from the abandonment of the Geneva Conventions to the indefinite detention of citizen "combatants."
Attempting to defend the secret domestic surveillance program, the attorney general said that the White House had considered asking Congress to pass new legislation that would explicitly permit those activities. He asserted that Congress had in fact already given blanket approval for such spying with its approval of the war resolution. But he also confessed that the administration had abandoned the idea of new legislation because getting a bill through Congress "would be difficult if not impossible." In other words, Congress would refuse to pass legislation authorizing activities its members had supposedly approved after Sept. 11, 2001.
Obviously that argument makes no sense -- and the dishonesty of the Bush defenders only undermines the public confidence that would be necessary to entrust the White House with expanded powers to spy. New technologies that enable the government to sweep through gigantic amounts of computer and voice data, in search of clues to terrorist threats, may well require new legislation. Nobody wants to enable terrorists to escape timely detection. But if the president gets away with behaving like a tyrant, with constitutional checks and balances erased by fiat, then the terrorists have indeed already won. And around it goes, to that cha cha cha beat, with the thumping bass - or is that base..
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Post #238,887
12/21/05 7:21:04 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong....
But Bill Clinton was investigated by Kenneth Starr for those 900 files, no?
So far, NO ONE has investigated Dubya for this one.
I don't care if we make it legal or illegal..but can we PLEASE be consistant rather than changing the rules depending on who's party is in office?
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Post #238,891
12/21/05 7:41:55 PM
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remember to vote dem in the midterms
if you want an investigation, remember it was repos first act of taking over. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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